Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

General questions or discussion about HandBrake, Video and/or audio transcoding, trends etc.
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BobbyBoberton
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Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by BobbyBoberton »

Description of problem or question:

I was recently told that handbrake could not handle HDR10 metadata properly because the workflow pipeline is not entirely 10-bit and therefore could not possibly support HDR10 metadata conservation from the source material. I have solved the problem of conserving HDR10 metadata by using FFmpeg through CLI or something like StaxRip but I have gotten conflicting info as to whether the handbrake x265 10-bit pipeline is ENTIRELY 10-bit or not. Can you answer it?


Steps to reproduce the problem (If Applicable):

N/A


HandBrake version (e.g., 1.0.0):

Currently installed version 1.3.3


Operating system and version (e.g., Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, macOS 10.13 High Sierra, Windows 10 Creators Update):

Windows 10 1909 pro-64-bit (feature update 2004 hasn't been 'compatible' yet)


HandBrake Activity Log ***required*** (see How-to get an activity log)

no logs required, just asking questions about the general program x265 10-bit pipeline.

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Rodeo
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by Rodeo »

No. HandBrake is 8-bit throughout, the 10-bit encoder receives 8-bit input.

mduell
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by mduell »

The bit depth issue is independent of the HDR metadata issue.

BobbyBoberton
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by BobbyBoberton »

ok, so would a video that is 10-bit to start with lose some information/quality by running it through handbrake as it must be taken as an 8-bit source?

The overall picture here is are my '10-bit' encodes actually 10-bit (using libx265 main 10) or not really?

If I ran it through something like staxrip which is basically just a GUI for FFmpeg/x265/other codecs be better if I am looking to preserve all the 10-bit info from a 10-bit source? I get it if I am starting out with an 8-bit source then I am not really losing anything by using handbrake but if the source is already 10-bit would I be better served using something else?

mduell
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by mduell »

Any 10 bit HDR input will be converted to 8 bit SDR in HB, and then output as 10 bit SDR if you choose a 10 bit encoder.

Yes, if you want 10 bit (optionally HDR), you're better with something other than HB that supports 10 bit and optionally HDR.

BobbyBoberton
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by BobbyBoberton »

ok but if the 10-bit input was already SDR is there any actual info lost? Because I can definitely generate 10-bit SDR x265 files through handbrake by using x265 main 10 profile, so as long as the 10-bit source wasn't HDR then there is no actual loss?

mduell
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by mduell »

Yes, as stated several places above, all 10 bit input will be converted to 8 bit in HB, regardless of your output bit depth.

BobbyBoberton
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by BobbyBoberton »

Ok, I am not trying to be difficult, I am just having a hard time understanding why you would allow 10 or 12 bit depth output but force 8-bit depth input.

These are serious questions, they may seem dumb or like I am trolling you but I am just trying to get the truth.

If the source is 8-bit SDR x264 and you convert to 10-bit SDR x265 there should be no 'loss' of quality or information from the source as it was 8-bit to begin with yes? (pixel-wise at least, obviously there can be loss of quality/info from the encoder being used)

If the source is 10-bit SDR x264 and you convert to 10-bit SDR x265 then some 'loss' of quality or information should be expected as the 10-bit SDR x264 has to be changed to 8-bit YUV420p bitstream instead of YUV420p10le right?

I know the 'preservation of HDR' is a bit different than these questions so I will leave it like that. I just didn't want you to think I was trolling you or trying to make this a repetitive nightmare thread with the same questions over and over again.

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Rodeo
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by Rodeo »

Because the code to support a 10-bit pipeline hasn't been written yet and the volunteer developers do not have enough time to work on it.

musicvid
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by musicvid »

I might add that that is a major undertaking. Pretty much ground-up according to other developers.
You may get a little residual banding from the 8 bit pipeline, but having done the tests, Handbrake's dither algorithm is already the best.

mduell
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Re: Is the x265 10-bit workflow pipeline 10-bit ENTIRELY in Handbrake?

Post by mduell »

BobbyBoberton wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:36 pm
Ok, I am not trying to be difficult, I am just having a hard time understanding why you would allow 10 or 12 bit depth output but force 8-bit depth input.

These are serious questions, they may seem dumb or like I am trolling you but I am just trying to get the truth.

If the source is 8-bit SDR x264 and you convert to 10-bit SDR x265 there should be no 'loss' of quality or information from the source as it was 8-bit to begin with yes? (pixel-wise at least, obviously there can be loss of quality/info from the encoder being used)

If the source is 10-bit SDR x264 and you convert to 10-bit SDR x265 then some 'loss' of quality or information should be expected as the 10-bit SDR x264 has to be changed to 8-bit YUV420p bitstream instead of YUV420p10le right?

I know the 'preservation of HDR' is a bit different than these questions so I will leave it like that. I just didn't want you to think I was trolling you or trying to make this a repetitive nightmare thread with the same questions over and over again.
10 bit output was mostly just dropping in the new encoder libraries, so it was easy.
Nobody has proposed a patch for a 10 bit video pipeline.

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