Apple TV help for the newbies

Discuss encoding for devices and presets.
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nathug
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Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

Hi,

I have read about every post in here reguarding the best appleTV setting. What is lacking is someone just saying, this maybe the best. Could someone please post a full setting that works with no skipping etc, so us newbies can catch up and play too.
brianlees
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by brianlees »

I think the response that you will get form the devs is "use the preset". And, they are right. The preset is very good and is conservative so that you don't have to worry about hiccups. Any of the other discussion about the settings is advanced stuff trying to push the envelope. Plus, Apple hasn't posted the full specs.
sbalthazor
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by sbalthazor »

Newbies: Use the Preset. It is there specifically for newbies and average users and functions great and is a nice balance between size and quality. I never have a problem with it when I do my generic encodes...

Otherwise your best bet is to read every thread and just keep slowing modifying the preset to something you like better. Encoding and re-encoding and re-encoding is the official Handbrake lifestyle as you fine tune what works best for you...But once you find your personal sweet spot life is great.
dynaflash
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by dynaflash »

sbalthazor wrote:Encoding and re-encoding and re-encoding is the official Handbrake lifestyle as you fine tune what works best for you...But once you find your personal sweet spot life is great.
Wow, couldn't have said it better myself. :)

But their right, if you don't want to spend the time risking failed encodes. Use the preset. Its heavily tested and is remarkably good quality considering its wide ranging applicability ( is that even a word ?) .
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

My point though is that there is a few of us that would like to try these advanced setting. But when you read and read the forums here, no one ever puts out a final setting preset after the long line of conversation. It would be great, if someone could do this. This way we too, maybe we would able to help with the disc testing of these presets.
dynaflash
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by dynaflash »

nathug wrote:But when you read and read the forums here, no one ever puts out a final setting preset after the long line of conversation. It would be great, if someone could do this.
Well thats largely because its a work in progress.
In this thread: http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php ... &sk=t&sd=a you can see what has been tried and what people are using. Feel free to try those settings. However, read the whole thread so you understand the pros and cons of such settings.

To get you going, for me I use 68% crf with these advanced options:

Code: Select all

bframes=6:ref=6:mixed-refs=1:subq=6:me=umh:no-fast-pskip=1:trellis=1:weightb=1:bime=1:brdo=1:direct=auto:vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
However, you need to read the thread to understand the context of such settings. Also realize no one is endorsing this as an "offical" setting from the HandBrake project. I just use it and like it. Same with the rest of the settings you will see. No guarantees. The encodes are slow and may/may not work out for you. Also you will see that I synch all of my content. You will also see that some have had issues with dropped frames on some sources if streamed to the atv. Give it a whirl if you want, but ymmv. If you want a very nice encode which is all but foolproof. Use the preset.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

Many thanks for the advice. The preset code you have here is what I have been using the past week. The wait for the encoding is more than worth it. The picture looks a lot sharper, and there is a lot less artifacts in the flat areas of the picture. But, it doesn't work for older TV DVDs. I'm from the UK and like the comedy 'Black Books', the pic skips everywhere. My guess this is due to the frame rate being higher, and the deinterlacing needed? Any ideas?
dynaflash
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by dynaflash »

yeah, try a test using the stock atv preset vs. the advanced preset. Do not change *anything* else and make sure you are encoding *exactly* the same material. That should tell you if the skipping is due to the advanced settings or the need for one of the picture filters.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

The skipping is only when I use the advanced settings, on the normal AppleTV preset they look fine, except for the interlacing. Adding the slow de-interlacing to the Apple preset is fine too.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

Is there any small change I can do to the standard AppleTV preset to make my image look as sharp as the added string version. I don't mind if the files are slightly bigger, I just like the quality. I have tried upping the Average Bitrate to 5000, but I end up with a huge file, and no real improvement. Not like your setting.
nightstrm
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nightstrm »

If you are looking for quality, I'd suggest reading about CRF in the wiki as it can give you significant quality gains while not wasting bits encoding the entire video using ABR=5000. I use CRF exclusively now.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

OK so lets say I try just a CRF. What does the code add to the encoding:

Code: Select all

bframes=6:ref=6:mixed-refs=1:subq=6:me=umh:no-fast-pskip=1:trellis=1:weightb=1:bime=1:brdo=1:direct=auto:vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
should I still add this if I just use the CRF?

Code: Select all

vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
I have also seen discussions of using a CRF of 68% and other say use 70%, what does a 2% difference make?

Nate
jbrjake
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by jbrjake »

nathug wrote:OK so lets say I try just a CRF. What does the code add to the encoding:

Code: Select all

bframes=6:ref=6:mixed-refs=1:subq=6:me=umh:no-fast-pskip=1:trellis=1:weightb=1:bime=1:brdo=1:direct=auto:vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
Now see...do you want newbie info or not? Because that's not newbie info. The only newbie explanation I can give is to wave my hands really fast and say "It's a magic incantation that makes things take longer and take up less space" and what does that really tell you? It's all covered in the documentation.
should I still add this if I just use the CRF?

Code: Select all

vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
Well that's the thing with all these CRF+VBV encodes -- CRF isn't meant to work with bitrate limitation like that. You shouldn't add it, but you have to add it, because you have to deal with the AppleTV's limitations. But I don't think it's really the intended use.
I have also seen discussions of using a CRF of 68% and other say use 70%, what does a 2% difference make?
It's not a linear scale.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

Cheers, so which CRF would you recommend?
nightstrm
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nightstrm »

Anywhere between 60-70% would be a good start.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

OK Now I'm a little confused. I did 2 conversions of Rataouille:

1. AppleTV Preset on a 2-pass encoding:File Size - 2.42gb Bitrate - 3108

2. AppleTV Preset with Constant Quality at 70% and the following added to the string:File Size: 1.92 gb Bitrate - 2465

Code: Select all

vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500

Then I did a 30min episode of Black Books the same way. The File Size on 1 was 456mb and the File Size on 2 is 668 with a Bitrate of 3857.

Why did Rataouille have a lower file size and Bitrate on the CRF version, and Black Books have a higher file size and Bitrate. I'm confused? Also the conversion of Black Books looked better, and Rataouille in the dark parts looked not so good, but to the eye OK.

Nate
TedJ
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by TedJ »

Um, because that's what CRF is supposed to do? Clean animation will result in a lower ABR, while noisy video will result in a higher ABR.

Constant quality will give good results on a single pass encode, but bitrate and filesize are completely unpredictable.
dynaflash
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by dynaflash »

Right, thats the thing with crf as jbrjake has said before it maintains a specific quality and could care less about bitrate. Excellent to make sure you get the look you want. *However* the caveat is you don't really know what bitrate the x264 encoder will need to use to achieve that quality. Like all things its a tradeoff. This is why the Built In appleTV preset uses ABR. Its a known quantity and produces very acceptable quality. In many cases it may look just as good as the crf encodes. In others ... not so much. But its performance on the atv is very predictable.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

So far these are my favorites.

For Film DVD:

70% Constant Quaility, Strick Anamorphic, VFR ON, DRC at 1.2

Code: Select all

bframes=6:ref=6:mixed-refs=1:subq=6:me=umh:no-fast-pskip=1:trellis=1:weightb=1:bime=1:brdo=1:direct=auto:vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
This has been giving me a great sharp picture, with a low amount of artifacts on the flat sections of the picture. It just takes a long time to compile. 2 movies over night is my average. On some movies like Walk Hard, the compression blocks were sometime looking like horizontal banding. With this setting its so hard to see them, helping clarify the picture no end. Looks just as good as the DVD version from my Oppo DVD player. I'm encoding Rataouille today with this, and will see what happens.

For Older TV DVD stuff, that needs to be de-interlaced

70% Constant Quaility, Strick Anamorphic,VFR ON and De-Interlace on SLOW, DRC at 1.2 and add the following to the advanced code in the standard AppleTV Preset

Code: Select all

vbv-maxrate=4900:vbv-bufsize=3500
This gives a slightly larger file than the AppleTV preset, but its as clear and sharp as I can get with out it skipping. The above DVD preset skips and jumps all over the place. But this looks nice!!

The DRC at 1.2 works great for watching these with my TV sound.

Nate
nightstrm
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nightstrm »

Now just wait until you have .9.3 -- VAQ to further improve picture quality, and combing detection (hopefully as this hasn't been officially submitted) so you don't have to deinterlace the entire video when its only needed occasionally. Encodes are looking really good now.

Handbrake -- the continuously evolving beast. 8)
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

Whats VAQ?

When will.9.3 be released? Will this mean, this whole process will start again? My wife will be so happy!!
nightstrm
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nightstrm »

nathug wrote:Whats VAQ?

When will.9.3 be released? Will this mean, this whole process will start again? My wife will be so happy!!
See this: http://trac.handbrake.fr/changeset/1333

I've come to the conclusion that the process never ends -- it is just a cruel cycle of me starting to make a dent on my encodes, an amazing new feature being added to Handbrake, and me restarting my encodes all over again.

As for a release date, no one knows for sure.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

Wow, that change sounds perfect. If that was added to the AppleTV standard preset, the result should look great, no?

Could someone create a Patch to implament this now?

Nate
nightstrm
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nightstrm »

It's in SVN code and enabled by default.
nathug
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Re: Apple TV help for the newbies

Post by nathug »

SVN Code?
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