Best Settings--DVD RIP for AppleTV--HELP!!!

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robertbroussard
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Best Settings--DVD RIP for AppleTV--HELP!!!

Post by robertbroussard »

I have ripped some personal DVDs via MTR and then ran them through HB with the default "AppleTV" settings and sometimes I did 2-pass encoding. Anyway, I would like to do a lot more ripping and I don;t want to have to do it again. Later this year I will by an AppleTV--now I'm just preparing my library. I would like the quality to be VERY good such that you cannot tell this is not the original DVD.

A few questions:

-Picture Setting. Why does it show that the Output (720 X 360) is smaller than the Source (720 X480)? Also, why does it show that the Anamorphic as 853 X 360? What does this mean? Am I losing quality by using these settings? What is recommended???

-Deinterlace. Should this be ON all the time? If so, what if the source is not interlaced--is this a problem?

-Average Bit Rate is 2500, is this recommended???

-Any other settings that I need to set for the best quality possible???

Thanks,

Robert
Cavalicious
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Post by Cavalicious »

robertbroussard
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Post by robertbroussard »

That thread is over the top technical.... is there no simple recipe? Or a simple set of guidelines? Or, an explanation of this thread?

I really would like to understand more.

Thanks,

Robert
robertbroussard
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ANswer this one question...

Post by robertbroussard »

Picture Setting. Why does it show that the Output (720 X 360) is smaller than the Source (720 X480)? Also, why does it show that the Anamorphic as 853 X 360? What does this mean? Am I losing quality by using these settings? What is recommended???
dynaflash
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Post by dynaflash »

robertbroussard wrote: Or a simple set of guidelines? Or, an explanation of this thread?
AppleTV Preset is the simplest.
robertbroussard wrote: I really would like to understand more.
Please read our online documentation if you would "really like to understand more"
http://handbrake.m0k.org/trac/wiki
robertbroussard
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Post by robertbroussard »

I've done a lot of searching and I've read the docs... I still don't understand why I'm getting the pixel dimensions mentioned above? For best quality, are these pixel dimensions an issue??? Can you just clarify that part?

---------------------------
Picture Setting. Why does it show that the Output (720 X 360) is smaller than the Source (720 X480)? Also, why does it show that the Anamorphic as 853 X 360? What does this mean? Am I losing quality by using these settings? What is recommended???
---------------------------

Thanks,

RObert
dynaflash
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Post by dynaflash »

robertbroussard wrote:Picture Setting. Why does it show that the Output (720 X 360) is smaller than the Source (720 X480)? Also, why does it show that the Anamorphic as 853 X 360? What does this mean? Am I losing quality by using these settings? What is recommended???
Because HandBrake is cutting off the black bars that are on the dvd and only encoding the true picture. No, you are not losing quality at all. You dont want to waste any bitrate on encoding the black bars.
MichaelLAX

Post by MichaelLAX »

robertbroussard wrote:Picture Setting. Why does it show that the Output (720 X 360) is smaller than the Source (720 X480)? Also, why does it show that the Anamorphic as 853 X 360? What does this mean? Am I losing quality by using these settings? What is recommended???
Think of resolution in two different ways:

1. Quality of source - Consider if you put a mesh screen in front of a photograph and all you are left with is the picture information that is touched by the screen mesh, but not with the amount left in the air space. Obviously the denser (correction) the mesh, the more picture information you are left with. The screen is an analog to digital converter.

The maximum resolution that can be saved in a standard (not HD) DVD format is 720x480. That is the finest "mesh screen" that can be stored on a DVD: Picture quality greater than that is lost. To express a widescreen program that is 16x9, normally you would be limited to 720x400, since there is no point in expressing the black bars (letterboxing) that would be in the 720x40 both above and below the program.

In your case, you have a 2.35x1 presentation, so the limitation would be 720x304 [correction].

2. Size of Image - But since DVDs can express a maximum resolution of 480 vertically, they have come up with a trick ("anamorphic") to make maximum use of this capability, from which they took the old optical trick of using lenses to squeeze a widescreen image on 35 (or 70) mm film and then using a corresponding lens on the projector to unsqueeze it during playback.

Hence, they take the 853x480 program and squeeze it down to the maximum resolution of 720x480, and during playback they tell the software player to unsqueeze it back out to 853x480. You can see a representation of this process if you have an ASPECT or ZOOM button on your HDTV.

Handbrake tells you all of this information before the rip: The Source - 720x480; the actual screensize represented - 720x400 (if the program was originally 16x9; or in your case, since the program must be a widescreen 2.35x1, 720x304 [correction]) and the anamorphic presentation - 853x480 (if the program was originally 16x9; or in your case, since the program must be a widescreen 2.35x1, 853x360).

Your best quality is to use anamorphic. Only mkv and mp4 containers support anamorphic; avi does not. An un-hacked Apple TV only supports mp4 containers; once hacked with Perian, it will support all three.
Last edited by MichaelLAX on Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
robertbroussard
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Post by robertbroussard »


Your best quality is to use anamorphic. Only mkv and mp4 containers support anamorphic; avi does not. An un-hacked Apple TV only supports mp4 containers; once hacked with Perian, it will support all three.
[/quote]

Thanks for the FABULOUS explanation--I needed that!

So, beyond the standard AppleTV Preset are there other features or settings that I should mindful of and set them all of the time or in certain situations??? For example:

Should I keep the deinterlace thing ON all the time... I think most of the time that the DVD source is progressive... or is it? Can the DVD native footage be interlace or Progressive frame?

Do the two pass option? Turbo on?

Lower the avg. bit rate? Is 2500 overkill???

Also, can the AppleTV be hacked without opening the box??? What can we do with it once modified?

I have been looking to get the AppleTV--I was hoping now that I've waited this long that a second gen. box would appear and would be more compelling.

Many thanks!

Robert
MichaelLAX

Post by MichaelLAX »

robertbroussard wrote:
Thanks for the FABULOUS explanation--I needed that!

So, beyond the standard AppleTV Preset are there other features or settings that I should mindful of and set them all of the time or in certain situations??? For example:

Should I keep the deinterlace thing ON all the time... I think most of the time that the DVD source is progressive... or is it? Can the DVD native footage be interlace or Progressive frame?

I'll let others with more experience with HandBrake chime in here, after I add my 2 cents, but I usually always deinterlace DVDs.

Do the two pass option? Turbo on?

Once you decide to do two-pass, definitely turn on turbo. 2-pass allows for greater quality at lower bit rates using an algorithym during the first pass. I always use it for "view more than once" content, and usually don't use it for "view once content" especially if transcoding time is a consideration.

Lower the avg. bit rate? Is 2500 overkill???

It's a bit subjective; I have great results with 2-pass 750 bits for non-HD content that is 720x400 or less or 2-pass 1050 bit for anamorphic.

Also, can the AppleTV be hacked without opening the box??? What can we do with it once modified?

The terrific answer is YES, the USB Patchstick hack works like a dream; check out AwkwardTV and their Apple TV Hacks. I did 3 mods: ATVFiles (which includes Perian), NitoTV (needed if you want to upgrade to ATV v1.1 for YouTube without the OS X strip-down) & ATVTorrents. Once installed you have a menu that allows you to go online and do more installs, and I have been playing with Sapphire since then.

I purchased an USB patchstick hack on eBay, since I have reached the stage of my life where I no longer feel the need to spend hours learning how to do a one-time hack; but I got the Sh*t kicked out of me here on this Forum for posting the link!

I haven't done it yet but another hack will allow for an external HD to be connected to the USB port and hold all of your content


I have been looking to get the AppleTV--I was hoping now that I've waited this long that a second gen. box would appear and would be more compelling.

If a 2nd generation box is to come out before the holidays, it better come out soon! I think their preoccupation with iPhone and Leopard was a much higher priority to Apple.

Hopefully the 2nd generation will have a more powerful C2Duo CPU to allow for more Hi-Def content to play natively and a FireWire port to allow for the Griffin FireWave (discrete 5.1 audio). If it does, I will buy my 2nd model with a small hard disk, add an external HD to it and move the current unit to my bedroom (like I have always done with all my upgraded technology going back to my first VCR, forward!), but I recommend not to wait too long.

I love having my DirecTV HD DVR for current programming and HD movies and my Apple TV for archival programming & movies (including content that I move over from my DVR).


Many thanks!

Robert
dynaflash
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Post by dynaflash »

MichaelLAX wrote:
robertbroussard wrote:
I'll let others with more experience with HandBrake chime in here, after I add my 2 cents, but I usually always deinterlace DVDs.

Do the two pass option? Turbo on?

Once you decide to do two-pass, definitely turn on turbo. 2-pass allows for greater quality at lower bit rates using an algorithym during the first pass. I always use it for "view more than once" content, and usually don't use it for "view once content" especially if transcoding time is a consideration.

Lower the avg. bit rate? Is 2500 overkill???

It's a bit subjective; I have great results with 2-pass 750 bits for non-HD content that is 720x400 or less or 2-pass 1050 bit for anamorphic.
*Only* deinterlace interlaced content. There is nothing to gain (besides useless encoding time) and something to lose by deinterlacing progressive content.

As far as bitrate, do some tests of your own. The 2500kbps bitrate of the AppleTV Preset was tested quite a bit and provides a very nice picture at a reasonable file size. Do a search, there is much discussion about this.

If you decide to use 2 pass, the tubo option can cut the time of your first pass almost in half and has negligible effect on the quality of your encode.
jbrjake
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Post by jbrjake »

MichaelLAX:

1)
To express a widescreen program that is 16x9, normally you would be limited to 720x400, since there is no point in expressing the black bars (letterboxing) that would be in the 720x40 both above and below the program.

In your case, you have a 2.35x1 presentation, so the limitation would be 720x360.
The Source - 720x480; the actual screensize represented - 720x400 (if the program was originally 16x9; or in your case, since the program must be a widescreen 2.35x1, 720x360) and the anamorphic presentation - 853x480 (if the program was originally 16x9; or in your case, since the program must be a widescreen 2.35x1, 853x360).
You've got 16:9 right, but 2.35:1 slightly off.

If it's truly 16:9, it's stored at 720*480. If you don't use anamorphic, it's scaled down and encoded at 720*400. If you do use anamorphic, it's encoded at 720*480, just like it's stored on the DVD, and displayed at 854*480 -- which is also a 16:9 aspect ratio.

If it's 2.35:1, it's stored at 720*360. If you don't use anamorphic, that's scaled down to 720*304 -- which is 2.35:1. If you do use anamorphic, it's stored at 720*360, just like on the DVD, and displayed at 854*360, which also has a 2.35:1 aspect ratio.


2) You seriously deinterlace everything? I thought I had this pretty clearly explained in the wiki...
Deinterlace

If you see combing or teeth (horizontal lines) in the preview images, choose a method from the Deinterlace pop-up menu. If that makes the lines go away, keep it enabled. For a fuller explanation, see the Deinterlacing Guide. If enabling it doesn't seem to change the picture in the preview frames, disable it. You're better off leaving it unchecked except when it's absolutely needed. Fast deinterlacing seriously reduces picture quality, while the slow deinterlacing methods will seriously reduce your encoding speeds.
MichaelLAX

Post by MichaelLAX »

jbrjake:

Thanks for the 2.35x1 correction; I should have doubled checked my math before posting. Interestingly, HandBrake tells me "853" and not "854" (although when I digitize content from my DirecTV HD DVR anamorphically, I resize it to 854x480, since both numbers are then divisible by 16).

Anecdotally, the DVDs I rip are all interlaced. Hence my comment: "I'll let others with more experience with HandBrake chime in here..."

Inadvertently t'was a clever way to get you to expand upon dynaflash's recommendation to: "*Only* deinterlace interlaced content." :D
jbrjake
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Post by jbrjake »

MichaelLAX wrote:Interestingly, HandBrake tells me "853" and not "854" (although when I digitize content from my DirecTV HD DVR anamorphically, I resize it to 854x480, since both numbers are then divisible by 16).
The PAR for a widescreen DVD in NTSC countries is usually 32/27.

The display width of a widescreen anamorphic DVD is the storage width (720) times the PAR (32/27).

720 * 32 / 27 = 853.3333333333333333... (repeating)

When you do that math in C, it gets truncated to 853 -- so that's what you see in the info in HB. When VLC or QuickTime displays it, it rounds to numbers divisible by 2.
robertbroussard
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Post by robertbroussard »

http://appletvhacker.blogspot.com/2007/ ... -how.html


Is this recipe still valid--see the link above.

This thing talks about a trick using Quicktime Pro.

Thoughts?

Can you reliably judge the encode quality on your computer and no via AppleTV?

Thanks,

Robert
Cavalicious
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Post by Cavalicious »

Too Old
MichaelLAX

Post by MichaelLAX »

robertbroussard wrote:http://appletvhacker.blogspot.com/2007/ ... -how.html


Is this recipe still valid--see the link above.

Again we need some input from the HandBrake Pros...

That guide, while helpful, is way out of date. HandBrake is now at 0.9.1 and chocked full of new features.

Again, try the Apple TV preset on some short samples (one or two chapters) and then try it again with a change in settings.

It can't be repeated too often, but read the HandBrake documentation; they have gone to great lengths to make it truly relevant.


This thing talks about a trick using Quicktime Pro.

Not sure what reference there was to QT Pro, other than in the replies, but it too is probably out of date.

Thoughts?

I've used all of the available transcoders for the Mac, including the so-called Hardware-Encoder-on-a-Stick, and for DVD conversion you can't beat HandBrake for transcoding! Certainly not for the price...

Can you reliably judge the encode quality on your computer and no via AppleTV?

I never watch movies on my computer; that's why I purchased an Apple TV! There is no "perfect" answer, because in time the next technology will improve on H.264 with better audio, etc. My advice: do the best you can now, watch, enjoy, and since you own your DVD masters, you can always transcode to the next "great" thing!"

Thanks,

Robert
jbrjake
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Post by jbrjake »

That guide has been out of date since HandBrake 0.8.5b1.
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