AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

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tc60045
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:59 pm

AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by tc60045 »

Respectfully, will SDH in AppleTV 5.1 change our subtitle options?

Has anyone played with subtitles in 5.1, yet?


Thx, TC
DaveyDave
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:36 pm

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by DaveyDave »

The only changes I've seen with the software update are:

1. There is no longer a transparent background behind subtitles.
2. You can now enable closed captions (if available) when watching individual files. If you press and hold "Select" on the remote, you have the option to turn on any subtitles or closed captions included in the file. This has always been the behaviour for subtitles, but it is new for closed captions. Previously, to turn on a closed caption track, you had to enable closed captions in Settings. That caused closed captions for all files with closed captions included to be displayed until that option was turned off in Settings. Now, closed captions can be turned on/off for individual files while those files are playing.
3. The ATV remembers your subtitle/closed caption setting for a particular file even if you watch a file to the end and play it again later. (I'm not sure if this is new.)

One other thing I've noticed is that the font sizes of subtitles vary depending on the picture size. If I encode a movie (Blu-ray source) without cropping the black bars, the font displayed for the subtitles is larger than if I encode that same movie and crop the black bars. The actual words shown are the same; only the font size is different.
Last edited by DaveyDave on Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hanumang
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:11 pm

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by hanumang »

Yeah, #1 & 2 are new to 5.1, for sure.

The font size being different for 1.78:1, 1.85:1, 1.66:1 & 1.33:1 files vs 2.35:1 & 2.40:1 frame sizes is something that actually debuted with the ATV 2 in 2010. In fact, the original software version made it a point to place the subs for 2.35 & wider films under the picture (in the letterbox area), but this caused the second line to be cut off by overscan on a lot of sets (my gf has a 720p set where overscan cannot be turned off, and the clipped lines were really annoying) and was subsequently 'corrected' with the 4.1 update to AppleTV.

The removal of the opaque bar is most welcome in 5.1. :)

Since we're all about arcane details here - :D - the other new thing I have noticed with sub playback is -- when playing back some older encodes of DVDs, where I took the CC text track wholesale with HB -- the 5.1 software for AppleTV (and iOS 6.0) now displays THREE lines of text where, in the past, devices merged lines 2 & 3.
Last edited by hanumang on Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Deleted User 11865

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by Deleted User 11865 »

hanumang wrote:my gf has a 720p set where overscan cannot be turned off
Buy her a new TV :P
hanumang
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:11 pm

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by hanumang »

LOL - that's what SHE's been saying!
lessismo
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:32 pm

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by lessismo »

hanumang wrote:Yeah, #1 & 2 are new to 5.1, for sure.

The font size being different for 1.78:1, 1.85:1, 1.66:1 & 1.33:1 files vs 2.35:1 & 2.40:1 frame sizes is something that actually debuted with the ATV 2 in 2010. In fact, the original software version made it a point to place the subs for 2.35 & wider films under the picture (in the letterbox area), but this caused the second line to be cut off by overscan on a lot of sets (my gf has a 720p set where overscan cannot be turned off, and the clipped lines were really annoying) and was subsequently 'corrected' with the 4.1 update to AppleTV.
But then with no overscan, you get opposite pb: 2.35 & 2.40 movies from 1080p BR propely HBed [cropped=no black bars] have quite small subtitles :|.
They also do not fit in middle of letterbox area, but quite higher.

I tried using Subler to correct that by modifying subtitles "scaled size", no luck.
Seems to have no impact on ATV 4.1 or 5.1, or even iTunes.

Simple solution would be to keep black bars [no cropping], but I dont like the idea (why encoding "no information" area, bigger file, what about anamorphic, etc.).
How are Apple encodes for 2.35 movies from Itunes store ? Do they have small subtitles as well ?

One last idea maybe: are Close Captions for such movies displayed with normal font size ?
hanumang
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:11 pm

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by hanumang »

lessismo wrote:But then with no overscan, you get opposite pb: 2.35 & 2.40 movies from 1080p BR propely HBed [cropped=no black bars] have quite small subtitles :|.
They also do not fit in middle of letterbox area, but quite higher.

I tried using Subler to correct that by modifying subtitles "scaled size", no luck.
Seems to have no impact on ATV 4.1 or 5.1, or even iTunes.

Simple solution would be to keep black bars [no cropping], but I dont like the idea (why encoding "no information" area, bigger file, what about anamorphic, etc.).
How are Apple encodes for 2.35 movies from Itunes store ? Do they have small subtitles as well ?

One last idea maybe: are Close Captions for such movies displayed with normal font size ?
Closed Captions display depends on authoring but the font size is (IME) always larger than the subtitle font size with 2.35 or 2.40:1 films.

There is unfortunately no way to adjust subtitle size on the AppleTV at all-- not for our encodes, not for iTunes purchases or rentals.

The Scaled Size property is only recognized by QuickTime-based systems/apps (aka Tiger or Leopard, QuickTime 7), not with AV Foundation -- Apple's audio/video framework introduced with iOS, then ported over to Mac OS starting with Snow Leopard. (The AppleTV 2 & 3 are, of course, iOS devices. iTunes subtitle font size depends on the OS version aka QuickTime vs. AV Foundation.)

FWIW, I think you misunderstood my original issue - the subs have always been small on AppleTV 2, the problem originally was that they were small AND got clipped unless you could turn overscan off. With the software update later, they simply got moved up about 30 pixels (solving half the problem). Really wish I could make the subtitle font bigger, too. Maybe in 6.0?
lessismo
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:32 pm

Re: AppleTV 5.1 and SDH

Post by lessismo »

hanumang wrote:Closed Captions display depends on authoring but the font size is (IME) always larger than the subtitle font size with 2.35 or 2.40:1 films.

There is unfortunately no way to adjust subtitle size on the AppleTV at all-- not for our encodes, not for iTunes purchases or rentals.

The Scaled Size property is only recognized by QuickTime-based systems/apps (aka Tiger or Leopard, QuickTime 7), not with AV Foundation -- Apple's audio/video framework introduced with iOS, then ported over to Mac OS starting with Snow Leopard. (The AppleTV 2 & 3 are, of course, iOS devices. iTunes subtitle font size depends on the OS version aka QuickTime vs. AV Foundation.)
Thanx very much for this clear info :o.
I wasted quite some time over last weeks trying to find a solution.
hanumang wrote:FWIW, I think you misunderstood my original issue - the subs have always been small on AppleTV 2, the problem originally was that they were small AND got clipped unless you could turn overscan off. With the software update later, they simply got moved up about 30 pixels (solving half the problem). Really wish I could make the subtitle font bigger, too. Maybe in 6.0?
Correct, I thought small font size was a consequence of clipped subtitles issue solution.
I did not purchase an ATV2 because it was still not 1080p display capable, so missed part of the story.

Thx again for your answer, it's quite a relief :mrgreen:, less doubts on my encoding process.
Fingers crossed for 6.0
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