ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stuttering

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AWI67
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ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stuttering

Post by AWI67 »

As an example, I'm trying to add an Activity log, but by doing this my posting gets too long...
Asking for a log is fine, but if the forum software prevents me from doing so, how can I ask my question?




Hello all,
after having had the issue with ATV2 I recently bought the new ATV3. Same
issue - all files that I rip myself show some "micro stuttering", no matter
which settings in Handbrake I use.
My TV should be able to handle 24p and Bluray disks as well as DVDs play
perfectly fine. Content from iTunes played via ATV2 and ATV3 plays well
also.
I tried all different frame-rates in Handbrake and that changes the extent
of stuttering a little, but I could not find a setting that plays perfectly
smooth.
I also tried to convert using Elgato-software to see if it's a Hanbrake
issue. Here the stuttering shows another "rhythm" but is still there.
My TV is a Loewe Connect (50/100Hz) that should handle 24p well and does so
using other devices.
Please help as this issue drives me crazy...
All the best
Andreas



As an example, I'm trying to add an Activity log, but by doing this my posting gets too long...
Asking for a log is fine, but if the forum software prevents me from doing so, how can I ask my question?
Last edited by AWI67 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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s55
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by s55 »

If your log is too long for the post: please use http://handbrake.fr/pastebin/ and post the URL it provides.
If there is a lot of duplication, you can cut some of it out.
AWI67
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by AWI67 »

OK, thanks for the input.
Here is the Activity File:

http://paste.handbrake.fr/pastebin.php?dl=3041

All the best
Andreas
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Rodeo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Rodeo »

Does disabling detelecine and decomb help?
AWI67
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by AWI67 »

....no, it does not change anything...:-(
All the best
Andreas
rshillshooter81
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by rshillshooter81 »

On your AppleTV3 did you try to select 50hz for 1080p rather than auto?

Does your TV have any motion plus or if it has a game mode try and enable it.
Brizzle
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Brizzle »

I noticed the same thing. I have an ATV2 and a new model Samsung 46" LED-LCD from last year. I use the ATV2 preset on all my rips. I don't notice the stuttering on my iMac but I do on the ATV2. Usually if I stop paying attention to it while I'm watching a movie my brain will eventually forget about it, although it's distracting at first. Probably need to play around with the settings on my TV or something.
twitch2021
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by twitch2021 »

Brizzle wrote:I noticed the same thing. I have an ATV2 and a new model Samsung 46" LED-LCD from last year. I use the ATV2 preset on all my rips. I don't notice the stuttering on my iMac but I do on the ATV2. Usually if I stop paying attention to it while I'm watching a movie my brain will eventually forget about it, although it's distracting at first. Probably need to play around with the settings on my TV or something.
As a Samsung user, one thing you can check on is if you're using the Auto Motion Plus feature on "Standard" or "Smooth" (or a custom option that is close to either of those settings) as this may cause some stuttering. I have a 50" Samsung D6000 and I've noticed that using either of those settings generally results in stuttering and pixelation. On my TV the Auto Motion Plus feature is accessed via Menu>Picture(tab)>Picture Options>Auto Motion Plus. Hope that helps.
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

In the case of 23.976p/24p input, what you are referring to as "micro stuttering" is probably motion judder.
The ATV3 can output 50hz (or 60hz) and you TV sets its refresh rate accordingly. Since the movie framerate doesn't match the refresh rate, you get motion judder.
One way to get smooth playback is to play 25p video (which matches 50hz).
Question is: how to get a 25p movie out of 23.976p/24p source?
If you set 25p as an output in HB, it will add/drop frames to reach 25p, and by doing so, will likely create stutter as well.
One solution is to speedup the movie to 25p (video, audio, subs) which can not as of now be done in HB.

What you can do:
- encode the movie at its native framerate (i.e match source) into an intermediate output.m4v file
- demux all streams from output.m4v
- leave the video stream untouched
- reencode the audio streams (speedup to 25p) (I use eac3to, Windows tool through wine, in Linux)
- change the framerate of srt files (I used subtitleeditor in Linux)
- remux resulting streams including the untouched video stream and force the framerate to 25

And force the refresh rate of your ATV to 50hz.

My movies are 100% smooth.
Last edited by m4dm0nk3y on Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Flo »

m4dm0nk3y wrote:In the case of 23.976p/24p input, what you are referring to as "micro stuttering" is probably motion judder.
The ATV3 can output 50hz (or 60hz) and you TV sets its refresh rate accordingly. Since the movie framerate doesn't match the refresh rate, you get motion judder.
Normally I'd agree with your theory, but since 24p content purchased directly from iTunes rarely exhibits the problem, there has to be more to it.
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Rodeo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Rodeo »

Flo wrote:Normally I'd agree with your theory, but since 24p content purchased directly from iTunes rarely exhibits the problem, there has to be more to it.
I wonder if using a constant framerate helps at all.
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Flo wrote:
m4dm0nk3y wrote:In the case of 23.976p/24p input, what you are referring to as "micro stuttering" is probably motion judder.
The ATV3 can output 50hz (or 60hz) and you TV sets its refresh rate accordingly. Since the movie framerate doesn't match the refresh rate, you get motion judder.
Normally I'd agree with your theory, but since 24p content purchased directly from iTunes rarely exhibits the problem, there has to be more to it.
Never bought content from iTunes, so I can't really tell.
But I noticed motion judder on HD trailers for instance. and BTW, you said "rarely" which means you do suffer from motion judder from time to time.

I don't claim this is the absolute definitive explanation /solution. But IMHO, motion judder exists, and can only be limited e.g interpolation on TV (Motion Plus or similar) or in the ATV, ... The only way to avoid motion judder is to play 25p.

At worst, playing 25p is a workaround which works real fine. I encoded 15-20 movies so far @25p, and I can confirm I have no motion judder at all.
Flo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Flo »

m4dm0nk3y wrote:and BTW, you said "rarely" which means you do suffer from motion judder from time to time.
Yes. In some rare cases I've noticed judder on content purchased from iTunes.

I also think that it isn't just frame rates and refresh rates causing the issue. Most of my DVDs are PAL and encoded at ~25fps (same as source, VFR), and so far none of them have exhibited any issues when played back on an ATV2 set at 720p60, or an ATV3 set at 1080p60. My TV doesn't do any interpolation either.

Per Rodeo's suggestion I checked the frame rate modes on some TV shows and movies purchased from iTunes and it's always constant, whether it's 29.970, 23.976 or 25 fps, I haven't found a single example with a variable frame rate.
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Rodeo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Rodeo »

I meant "try Same as source, Constant Framerate" one one of your sources that stutters when using default settings, to see whether it helps with the stuttering or not.
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Interesting, all my encodes are indeed 25p CFR.
EDIT: But if IIRC, I initially tried 23.976p CFR (both 50hz and 60hz), and there was motion judder... (Avatar, as soon as the first minute).
EDIT2: Never tried to force 60hz with 25p encodes. I'll give it a try when I get back home tonight, just to see how my 25p encodes play...
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

m4dm0nk3y wrote:Interesting, all my encodes are indeed 25p CFR.
Never tried to force 60hz with 25p encodes. I'll give it a try when I get back home tonight, just to see how my 25p encodes play...
Forced the ATV3 to 1080p@60hz, started one of my 25p encodes, and it was terrible. Stuttering, a lot.
Flo wrote:
m4dm0nk3y wrote:and BTW, you said "rarely" which means you do suffer from motion judder from time to time.
I also think that it isn't just frame rates and refresh rates causing the issue. Most of my DVDs are PAL and encoded at ~25fps (same as source, VFR), and so far none of them have exhibited any issues when played back on an ATV2 set at 720p60, or an ATV3 set at 1080p60. My TV doesn't do any interpolation either.
Well, I have no explanation. I have searched the web for a similar behavior and I just couldn't find any. AFAICT, you are one of a kind!

While searching, I have come across numerous ATV users complaining about judder, and regretting that Apple hasn't implemented 24hz/48hz/72hz output in the ATV.
My piece of advice to these users then, is to speed the movie up to 25fps and force the ATV to 50hz. Can't hurt to give this a try, can it? :wink:
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Rodeo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Rodeo »

Video quality or audio quality: pick one :?
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Rodeo wrote:Video quality or audio quality: pick one :?
For the terrible stuttering you mean? Audio was fine. Video was terrible. Strong motion judder, as I suspected with 25p @ 60hz.
GregiBoy
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by GregiBoy »

Another simple way to fix this is to ditch the braindead ATV's and get a decent media player and save all the hassles.

The $100-$150 you spend on the player will be saved on Hair Replacement Therapy!

:D :lol: :)
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Rodeo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Rodeo »

I mean if you do PAL speedup, you need to adjust the audio too, which changes the pitch (there are ways to correct that, but either way, it's lossy).
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Rodeo wrote:I mean if you do PAL speedup, you need to adjust the audio too, which changes the pitch (there are ways to correct that, but either way, it's lossy).
Sure, speeding up audio has consequences. But to me, they are (way) less noticeable than motion judder (as stated earlier, I use eac3to which does a wonderful job at adjusting/re-encoding audio).
But I agree, it's a matter of preference.
Flo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Flo »

Rodeo wrote:I mean if you do PAL speedup, you need to adjust the audio too, which changes the pitch (there are ways to correct that, but either way, it's lossy).
Living in Europe, PAL speedup has been the norm for me for as long as I can remember. Almost everything film-sourced has exhibits it and, unless you actually compare it side-by-side, it's not really noticeable. In fact, I find 24p content sped-up to 25p far less irritating than 3:2 NTSC pull-up.

That said, I've had my Apple TV set at 60Hz since I got it and I never noticed any issues playing back 25 fps content, even though that combination of input and output frequency should exhibit judder.
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Flo wrote:That said, I've had my Apple TV set at 60Hz since I got it and I never noticed any issues playing back 25 fps content, even though that combination of input and output frequency should exhibit judder.
Does you TV/LCD actually confirm via OSD/menu that it is set to 60hz?
Flo
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by Flo »

Actually, no. The only time my TV explicitly states the refresh rate for HDMI sources is when it's 24p. I do know for a fact that the Apple TV doesn't switch to 50Hz.
m4dm0nk3y
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Re: ATV2 and ATV3 drive me nuts...please help...micro stutte

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

I can't figure out a "logic" explanation. Everything I know about video tells me what is happening in your case is impossible... which proves I still have much to learn! :lol:
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