*** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Discuss encoding for devices and presets.
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TOMMYTHETECH
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by TOMMYTHETECH »

How do you change height & width settings, it is all greyed out. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Katzenfan
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Katzenfan »

Yes, i know that Blu-Ray with 1920x1080 is not anamorphic. But when i choose the "Normal" or the "High Profile" Presets, the Anamorphic Option is automatically set to "Strict" (Normal) or to "Loose" (High Profile). So i was wondering, if that does not make any difference and i can just ignore it. Or if I have to manually change the Anamorphic Setting to "None" when i choose "Normal" or "High Profile" Settings and the Source is a blu-ray.

TedJ
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by TedJ »

TOMMYTHETECH wrote:How do you change height & width settings, it is all greyed out. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
You'll need to switch to either loose, custom or no anamorphic. Strict anamorphic is designed to avoid rescaling.

TedJ
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by TedJ »

Katzenfan wrote:Yes, i know that Blu-Ray with 1920x1080 is not anamorphic. But when i choose the "Normal" or the "High Profile" Presets, the Anamorphic Option is automatically set to "Strict" (Normal) or to "Loose" (High Profile). So i was wondering, if that does not make any difference and i can just ignore it. Or if I have to manually change the Anamorphic Setting to "None" when i choose "Normal" or "High Profile" Settings and the Source is a blu-ray.
Since the PAR for Blu-ray sources is 1:1 choosing anamorphic none or strict should make no difference. I'd be careful with loose anamorphic since by default it rounds the frame size so it's cleanly divisible by 16 (i.e. mod16). This will result in the frame height being rescaled to either 1072 or 1088; selecting mod8 will avoid this.

samj
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by samj »

So after reading these 4 pages at this point it seems that the following would yield great results with BluRay MKV source and 1080P output for the ATV3 or iPAD3:

High Profile
RF20
Detelecine and Decomb OFF
Mod8
Anamorphic - NONE
Cropping - Automatic

Any downside to choosing Mod8 instead of 16?

Any reason why I would use Loose Anamorphic when the Source is BluRay MKV?
I noticed when I chose Mod8 - the dimensions corrected to 1920x1080.

I also noticed someone using this too: (High Profile, ref=4, bframes=4, RF 21) - what is the reasoning for the '4' instead of the default '3'. I'm guessing the RF21 is to speed up the encode?

Does this seem right for my purposes? Any reason to tweak beyond this?

Katzenfan
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Katzenfan »

I made some test encodings with the blu-ray movie "300" and the 3 presets Normal, High Profile and AppleTV 2.
Settings: 1920x800, Cropping 0,0,140,140, Anamorphic Strict, Large File Size enabled, Decomb&Detelecine Off.
Here are the results:

Constant Quality RF:19
- Normal: 12,2 GB (Encoding Time Hour:Min rounded - 3:45)
- High Profile: 12,7 GB (26:15)
- AppleTV 2: 13,2 GB (10:45)

Constant Quality RF:20
- Normal: 10,2 GB (6:45)
- High Profile: 10,7 GB (11:00)
- AppleTV 2: 11,1 GB (10:00)

I will do High Profile RF:19 again, because the encoding time seems very long for me.
Last edited by Katzenfan on Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

m4dm0nk3y
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Hi guys,

I've read the entire thread and I think it could be uselful for some of you if I'd share my experience in x264 & Blu-ray encoding/authoring, the target being an attempt to get the best out of HB to produce HQ Apple TV 3 compliant m4v files.

Disclaimer:
I do not pretend to be an x264/blu-ray/HB guru. I'am just sharing my experience.

Assumptions:
You don't mind SLOW encoding
Source is HQ (e.g blu-ray rip)
Source is a film (including a 3D animation, but not a hand-drawn animation like Disney movies).

Preset:
Start with the High Profile preset

Output settings:
Check "Large file size"
Choose MP4 container

Picture:
Choose whatever settings but DO NOT RESIZE, unless you target a specific resolution (e.g downscale to 720p)

Video filters:
Turn all filters OFF

Video:
RF20 is fine, but can be tuned to whatever you want, space/quality trade-off

Audio:
Choose what's best for you, depending on your audio equipment. Leave untouched if unsure

Subtitles:
N/A

Chapters:
N/A

Advanced: That's where the fun begins! Actually, these HB settings simply mimick x264 --preset veryslow --tune film
Ref frames: 4 if the output size is 1080 (as per H.264/MPEG4-AVC level 4.0 standard)
Ref frames: 9 if the output size is 720 (as per H.264/MPEG4-AVC level 4.0 standard)
Max B-Frames: 3 (this is largely arguable since this is a constraint from the blu-ray standard which probably doesn't apply to the Apple TV 3)
CABAC: On
8x8 Transform: On
Weighted P-Frames: On
Pyramidal B-Frames : Normal
No DCT decimate: Off
Adaptive B-Frames: Optimal
Adaptive Direct Mode: Auto
Motion Estimation Method: UMH
Subpixel ME & Mode Decision: 10 QPRD in all frames
Motion Estimation Range: 24
Partition Type: All
Trellis: Always
Adaptive Quantization Strength: 1
Pyschovisual Rate Distorsion: 1
Pyschovisual Trellis: 0.15
Deblocking: -1/-1
Custom string: b-adapt=2:rc-lookahead=60...

Hope it helps.

Please experiment and share with everyone.
Last edited by m4dm0nk3y on Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rodeo
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Rodeo »

m4dm0nk3y wrote:
Advanced: That's where the fun begins! Actually, these HB settings simply mimick x264 --preset veryslow --tune film

Ref frames: 4 if the output size is 1080 (as per H.264/MPEG4-AVC level 4.0 standard)
Ref frames: 6 if the output size is 720 (as per H.264/MPEG4-AVC level 4.0 standard)
Actually, for 720p @ 4.0 you can go as high as 9 references:

( 32768 * 256 ) / ( 1280 * 720 ) ~= 9.1

veryslow specifies up to 16 references, so to match veryslow you should use 9 :P
m4dm0nk3y wrote:
Max B-Frames: 3 (this is largely arguable since this is a constraint from the blu-ray standard which probably doesn't apply to the Apple TV 3)
veryslow specifies 8, which works just fine on my iPhone 4 S (don't have an AppleTV 2/3 to test, but its H.264 decoding hardware should be very similar)
m4dm0nk3y wrote:
CABAC: On
8x8 Transform: On
Weighted P-Frames: On
Pyramidal B-Frames : Normal
No DCT decimate: Off
Adaptive B-Frames: Optimal
Adaptive Direct Mode: Auto
Motion Estimation Method: UMH
Subpixel ME & Mode Decision: 10 QPRD in all frames
Motion Estimation Range: 24
Partition Type: All
Trellis: Always
Adaptive Quantization Strength: 1
Pyschovisual Rate Distorsion: 1
Pyschovisual Trellis: 0.15
Deblocking: -1/-1
Custom string: b-adapt=2:rc-lookahead=60...
b-adapt 2 and "Adaptive B-frames: Optimal" mean the same thing.

pheenix11
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by pheenix11 »

Katzenfan wrote:I made some test encodings with the blu-ray movie "300" and the 3 presets Normal, High Profile and AppleTV 2.
Settings: 1920x800, Cropping 0,0,140,140, Anamorphic Strict, Large File Size enabled, Decomb&Detelecine Off.
Here are the results:

Constant Quality RF:19
- Normal: 12,2 GB (Encoding Time Hour:Min rounded - 3:45)
- High Profile: 12,7 GB (26:15)
- AppleTV 2: 13,2 GB (10:45)

Constant Quality RF:20
- Normal: 10,2 GB (6:45)
- High Profile: 10,7 GB (11:00)
- AppleTV 2: (still encoding)

I will do High Profile RF:19 again, because the encoding time seems very long for me.
Thanks for this. I am not seeing the value in the High Profile preset. Seems like ridiculously long encode times with no savings in file size. Also its weird how the RF20 took longer than the RF19 for the Normal preset.

m4dm0nk3y
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

@rodeo

Thanks for your feedback rodeo.

Yep, you're right, 720p @ 4.0 accepts 9 ref frames and not 6, typo in my post... I'll update it.

Regarding Max B-Frames, you're right again (!). As I said in my post, I'm sticking to the Blu Ray standard for now, at least until I can do some testing with higher numbers.

And about b-adapt, you're right one more time (duh!). I intentionally repeated b-adapt=2 in the custom string as it is an HB default value(High profile) and not an x264 default value, and therefore appears in the custom string. I thought it might confuse users otherwise.
Last edited by m4dm0nk3y on Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rodeo
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Rodeo »

pheenix11 wrote:Thanks for this. I am not seeing the value in the High Profile preset. Seems like ridiculously long encode times with no savings in file size.
RF 20 doesn't output the exact same quality depending on the settings - the High Profile preset encode will have much better grain retention, for example.
pheenix11 wrote:Also its weird how the RF20 took longer than the RF19 for the Normal preset.
Indeed. But I wouldn't trust these times at all - High Profile should not be twice faster at RF 20 (vs. RF 19), nor should the AppleTV 2 preset be over twice as fast as the High Profile preset at the same RF.

Abulia
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Abulia »

pheenix11 wrote: Thanks for this. I am not seeing the value in the High Profile preset. Seems like ridiculously long encode times with no savings in file size. Also its weird how the RF20 took longer than the RF19 for the Normal preset.
Those encode times are extremely large. A 1080 encode on High Profile doesn't take more than 4 hours on my rig. He may have been hitting the limits of his system.

To bring this conversation back around, unless you really know what you're doing, your two best ATV3 encode options are the "Normal" or "High Profile" presets, as per the first post in this thread. Just click and encode. Don't overthink it.

Else, if you're going to try to push the limits of the ATV you should research what the various settings in Handbrake do for encode time vs quality vs file size. Use the wiki, hover over them in Handbrake for the tooltips, or search here on the forums.

m4dm0nk3y
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Rodeo wrote:
m4dm0nk3y wrote:
Max B-Frames: 3 (this is largely arguable since this is a constraint from the blu-ray standard which probably doesn't apply to the Apple TV 3)
veryslow specifies 8, which works just fine on my iPhone 4 S (don't have an AppleTV 2/3 to test, but its H.264 decoding hardware should be very similar)
Works on a 1080p video?

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Rodeo
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Rodeo »

Yep, AFAICT. Been a while since I tested it, but IIRC even placebo + 4.0 worked fine on my iPhone.

m4dm0nk3y
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Wow, that's interesting. My ATV3 will arrive in a couple of days. I'll experiment and report in this thread.

m4dm0nk3y
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by m4dm0nk3y »

Mmm... I'm wondering how these 2 sets of x264 settings compare in terms of quality (not storage obviously):

--preset medium --tune film --crf 20
--preset veryslow --tune film --crf 21

Anyone has an idea? (I doubt placebo would make a difference in the second scenario...)

kagharaht
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by kagharaht »

Oh. I've always thought that loose anamorphic would be the ideal choice if you play your movies on several different sized screens. For instance I have ATV on three different sized HD Screens, iPad 2 and iPhone 4s. So strict anamorphic will be fine for this? Thanks.

Here is what I found on the guide.

"Enabling Anamorphic PAR
You enable anamorphic encoding by selecting Strict or Loose from the Anamorphic PAR menu in HandBrake's picture settings.
Strict is more precise, but Loose is more efficient and flexible. Both will give you that big, widescreen image."

Flo
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Flo »

The default of loose anamorphic/mod16 is great for compatibility (runs on pretty much everything), but the scaling isn't perfect. Depending on cropping and output resolution, the picture can be stretched or squeezed by a couple of pixels in order to meet the restrictions. That's usually not visible but may annoy purists.

Keep in mind that this is about playback devices, not screens. Most devices will scale the output anyway. If you want a single encode to play on multiple different devices, find the lowest common denominator.

mic j
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by mic j »

Well, I don't know what to say. This is why, years ago, I started using HB then went to just ripping iso's and mkv's. All the different setting and parameters are enough to make my non-technical head spin. For casual user like me, and I am sure there are others out there, we just want to transcode our source file as quickly and reproducibly as possible, losing as little quality in the process as possible. Can I just go with the High Profile preset and anamorphic strict and end up with a good reproducible quality output to use for my aTV3? I just simply can't make each transcode a work of art.

Katzenfan
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Katzenfan »

I did the RF:19 High Profile encoding again (and now the encoding time makes sense), here are the results:

Constant Quality RF:19
- Normal: 12,2 GB (3:45)
- High Profile: 12,7 GB (11:15)
- AppleTV 2: 13,2 GB (10:45)

Constant Quality RF:20
- Normal: 10,2 GB (6:45)
- High Profile: 10,7 GB (11:00)
- AppleTV 2: 11,1 GB (10:00)

Hardware (a PC from 2009): Intel Core 2 Duo E7200 2,53 GHz 3MB Cache FSB1066, 4GB DDR2 800MHz, Win7HP

rollin_eng
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by rollin_eng »

mic j wrote:Well, I don't know what to say. This is why, years ago, I started using HB then went to just ripping iso's and mkv's. All the different setting and parameters are enough to make my non-technical head spin. For casual user like me, and I am sure there are others out there, we just want to transcode our source file as quickly and reproducibly as possible, losing as little quality in the process as possible. Can I just go with the High Profile preset and anamorphic strict and end up with a good reproducible quality output to use for my aTV3? I just simply can't make each transcode a work of art.
Yes, I imagine the high profile preset will be good enough for 99.9% of people.

Katzenfan
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Katzenfan »

For my iPad2 and ATV2 i used the AppleTV2 Preset.
Since i have the iPad3 and ATV3 from now on i will use the High Profile Preset (also when source is a DVD and not a blu-ray).

1. Will the High Profile encoded Movies also be playable on iPad2 and ATV2?
2. If Yes, what exactly was the reason for the AppleTV2 Preset before (instead of using the High Profile Preset)?

rollin_eng
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by rollin_eng »

Katzenfan wrote:For my iPad2 and ATV2 i used the AppleTV2 Preset.
Since i have the iPad3 and ATV3 from now on i will use the High Profile Preset (also when source is a DVD and not a blu-ray).

1. Will the High Profile encoded Movies also be playable on iPad2 and ATV2?
2. If Yes, what exactly was the reason for the AppleTV2 Preset before (instead of using the High Profile Preset)?
I have successfully played high profile encodes on the atv2, I have even played a direct blu ray rip.

The reason for the atv2 preset is that prior to the latest os update it was limited to what it could play. Since the update has only been out a few weeks people are still figuring out what will/wont work.

nehalem
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by nehalem »

I've been using high profile with 21 constant quality for 720p and 22 for 1080p.

I'm surprised to see how low peoples constant quality is here. With 20 I was seeing some blu-rays get over 10 gigs which is pretty high considering I would like the option to add them to my new iPad.

I've done some comparisons with 20 vs 22 (1080p on both the descendants and dances with wolves) and I really couldn't tell there was any difference. Furthermore the wiki suggests 22 (+/- 1) for high def rips. My question here would be whether those of you sticking with low constant quality are just playing it safe or have you really noticed a difference?

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Rodeo
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Re: *** AppleTV 3 and the New iPad (Presets) ***

Post by Rodeo »

Katzenfan wrote:2. If Yes, what exactly was the reason for the AppleTV2 Preset before (instead of using the High Profile Preset)?
High Profile will output 1080p from 1080p sources. AppleTV 2 and iPad 2 haven't always been capable of 1080p playback.

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