Ripping Sound Issues - Subwoofer (Explosions)

[SecondHand]

Hi,

I have been looking around this forum for a long time now and I searched to get a lot of the information I needed like the best settings etc...

I have ripped 3 movies now, that I feel content with - 300, Casino Royale and Kung Fu Panda.

Now for background, I have a 50 inch 1080p Samsung, Sony 5.1 Surround Sound system and the X-Box 360.

Usually, I play movies through the DVD player built into the surround sound, everything works. But obviously since I am ripping these movies, I just put them on a harddrive and plug them into the 360.

The one problem I have come across is sound issues. First of all, I did in fact read the articles on dynamic range compression and to my understanding (although I could be wrong) that is simply used to take soft scenes and turn up the volume. A lot of people seemed to have problem's on their iphone's etc, but I can heard perfectly fine without using the DRC at all.

Anyways, with all of that said... the 5.1 really isn't working correctly. I mean the sound itself is crystal clear - I use the AC 3 (5.1) for Track 1 and the DLP + AC3 for Track 2.

When I played 300 and Casino Royale, none of the explosions or anything seemed to be going through the subwoofer, nor did the 5.1 surround sound seem to be working (i.e. all the same sounds came from all of the speakers).

My X-Box runs through normal connection into the TV and the surround sound goes into the TV separately.

I am not sure if the issue is simply there is no correlation between the surround sound directly hooked up to the X-Box or what, but it's frustrating having none of the scenes in the movie using the sub really or the 5.1 not working for intense scenes.

Can someone help me figure out why this would be happening. Also, was what I said about DRC correct in terms of it's usage.

I read all the articles but sometimes the fancy talk entirely confuses me.

Thanks guys.

EDIT: I would have posted an activity log, but I restarted my computer and do not have one.

[rhester]

I can't speak to your 5.1 issues (though AC3 pass-thru is exactly what it sounds like, so you either have a player issue or a receiver issue), but you got DRC mostly right - it makes soft sounds louder and makes loud sounds softer.

Rodney

[jzietman]

Looking at the documentation DPII takes a 5.1 sound track and turns it into 2.0. I would guess that your xbox is playing the DPII track rather than the AC3 and so, as you said, is using only the front R and L speakers and no subwoofer. I don't know about the connections on the back of the 360, but is it possible to connect its 5.1 audio output to your receiver instead of routing it through the tv? you'd have to switch between tv and xbox channels on your receiver to hear one of the other, but you shouldn't lose 5.1 this way.

[SecondHand]

Cool.

So basically the DRC would not fix this, because it doesn't necessarily intensify sounds, it just balances them out?

So maybe the issue is that the receiver isn't necessarily recognizing the 5.1 through the X-Box, because technically, I figured it should work fine.

Maybe a solution would be to directly hook up my computer to the TV through HDMI and the sound from the receiver to the computer and see if that works, then I will know?

Also, on a side note while your here , like I said I think I found good settings,

Video - Same as source, x 264, ABR - 2000, Double Pass
Audio - 1 - AC3 5.1, 2 - DLP II + AC3

Picture - Simply strict anamorphic, nothing else...

But that was my question, again, I read the thread on VFR and deinterlacing etc... but it was very confusing...

I am guessing those settings are pretty solid because a lot of people seemed to be using the same ones....

I am just OCD and like all my stuff to be the perfect and the same, and considering it takes like 6 hours to rip a movie, I do not want to keep having to do it over again...

So how do you tell if a movie is interlaced, or if it truely does need VFR, it kind of seemed to be a personal preference? But I would like to know. As well as if those settings seem OK or if there is anything more technical I might be able to do better.


Either way, I am sure you get all these questions a lot and I really really appreciate the help.

Thanks!

[SecondHand]

thanks both of you for the help.

i just saw your post, jzietman, while typing the other.

that's not a bad idea, if I connect the 2 audio cables from the xbox straight into the receiver, and the video just into the tv, maybe that would do the trick?

the only weird thing is that audio IS coming out of all 5 of the speakers (FL, FR, Center, BL, BR) but it's all the same sound, not true surround sound.

maybe trying what i said will work, i still am not sure, it seems weird considering it is supposed to rip at 5.1 either way.

[jzietman]

First off, one of your audio tracks will be AC3, the other will be DPII, not DPII+AC3. A single track can't be encoded in two different ways. You are using DPII + AC3 as a general scheme, since one track is AC3 and the other is DPII.

Now that that's cleared up, i would suggest that you do a test encode using only AC3 and see what happens. You could encode just one chapter of a movie to see the results without having to wait for hours. I'm guessing that the xbox is defaulting to playing the DPII track rather than the AC3, I'd be interested to see what happens if it's only given AC3 to play with. Also, is there a setting menu on the xbox that you can use to change stuff while the file is playing? Maybe you can select the file's audio track that you want to play in there, or set it to default to surround sound? I don't know, I've never even used an xbox 360.

[SecondHand]

Excuse me...haha...bear with me, I pick up on things easy but I am still new at this....

My settings for 300 were -

Track 1 - AC3 (5.1) and Track 1 "MIX" - DPL II + AC3 -------- Nothing for Track 2 or Track 2 Mix;
I think it allowed this because for Codes I selected AVC/H.264/AAC + AC3

My settings for Casino Royale were the same as 300.

I get your idea, but I do not follow on how to do it. Are you saying I should just drop the Track 1 Mix, or what, there is no option to just not use it.

However for Track 1, I can select none, but with these AAC + AC3 settings, DLP II + AC3 is my only options under Track 1 MIX.

Any ideas?

[jzietman]

Ok, I just realized that you must not be using the latest version of handbrake. are you using snapshot 5? that would be a good first step...

[nightstrm]

that's not a bad idea, if I connect the 2 audio cables from the xbox straight into the receiver, and the video just into the tv, maybe that would do the trick?

Two audio cables? For DD5.1, you need to use something more than the red and white audio cables... optical or something similar.

[SecondHand]

Hmmm yeah. I mean I am using 0.9.2

But that didn't really answer any of the questions I asked haha.

And yeah, I mean again, still learning, but the receiver does have an optical out, unfortunately, the part where you put it in broke.

I didn't really think 5.1 could travel through red and white. So maybe that is the issue, since I am used to just directly playing DVD's straight from the receiver, which is obviously 5.1.

Do you think using optical would fix my issues in terms of the 5.1 / Subwoofer issue or is it something else?

AKA Is it that the left and right (red and white) just using mono and not really taking the rip in as 5.1 through the xbox?

And if you do think its the red and white, is there any other solution?

EDIT: I also know you guys definately know the answers to my other questions above about the video and deinterlacing and if my settings seemed appropriate. Any suggestions / support on if it looks good or not / anything I can do better (I know it's off topic from the sound but since I am trying to figure out both, I supposed one thread was easier).

[jzietman]

Hmmm yeah. I mean I am using 0.9.2

To start, use Snapshot 5. It's better in a great many ways. I mean it. Seriously.

Do you think using optical would fix my issues in terms of the 5.1 / Subwoofer issue or is it something else?

Yes, that would work. The red and white cables transmit only stereo (left and right channel) audio. It sounds like the receiver is doing the best it can under the circumstances, playing the left channel through both the front and rear left speakers, and doing the same thing for the right channel, but that's not surround sound, obviously. So, yeah, you need to get the optical fixed.

About xbox audio setup, look at these links that I found by googling "xbox 360 audio out:"
http://tech.yahoo.com/gd/hooking-up-xbo ... und/153060
http://www.command-tab.com/2007/09/16/x ... io-output/

Maybe those could answer some questions about what you need to do.

I also know you guys definately know the answers to my other questions above about the video and deinterlacing and if my settings seemed appropriate. Any suggestions / support on if it looks good or not / anything I can do better

Download and install the latest snapshot --> update the built-in presets --> use the xbox 360 preset. Then change how you want the audio to be encoded so that one track is AAC encoded using Dolby Pro Logic II and the other uses AC3 pass-through. Using the latest snapshot, the options I'm talking about should be very evident.

You only need deinterlacing is the source video is interlaced. Please do not deinterlace if this is not the case, you will destroy your image quality. By far the easiest way to make sure you do this right (in the latest snapshot, these options do not exist in 0.9.2) is, in the picture settings window, selecting "detelecine" and "decomb." Your video will be detelecined if and only if it needs it. Your video will be deinterlaced if and only if it needs it. And you won't have to worry about it, it'll happen automatically.

To understand what detelecine, deinterlace, decomb, etc. all are, read the documentation, which you can access at the "Handbrake FAQ" link near the top of the page.

[SecondHand]

Wow, that's great, so I just got Snapshot 5 downloaded...first of all it was weird because when I tried to open a DVD it said I had to download VLC player, or I could try to read it anyways, which is the option I picked and it seemed to read fine....I don't know if anyone else had the issue....

So anyways, selecting those options will for sure only do it if it is requires, aka the dvd is interlaced etc....and it figures it out on it's own?

That's really cool, I was hoping they would make an auto feature like that.

As far as all of my other options, I guess I will leave them pretty much the same. Now that I think about it, the whole 5.1 thing made sense, because 5.1 can't travel through red and white, and I am assuming that's probably also why the subwoofer is not working, because it's just hitting the speakers in basic form, makes sense.


Oh yeah, does it matter which order the tracks are in, or does the receiver etc... just pick out the best one?

Right now it's set as...

Track 1 - Source (AC3 5.1) Code (AAC - faac) Mixdown (DPL II)
Track 2 - Source (AC3 5.1) Code (AC3 Pass Thru) Mixdown (AC3 Passthru)

Is that essentially the settings you were telling me to use, plus a 48 sample rate and 160 bitrate?

Thanks a lot!

[jzietman]

Wow, that's great, so I just got Snapshot 5 downloaded...first of all it was weird because when I tried to open a DVD it said I had to download VLC player, or I could try to read it anyways, which is the option I picked and it seemed to read fine....I don't know if anyone else had the issue....

VLC is now used by Handbrake on Macs to read protected dvds, and VLC 0.9.x is required (latest version is 0.9.6). I would highly recommend that you install it if you are running a mac (are you running a mac or windows? i don't remember you ever specifying). In fact, since VLC is such a powerful media player (not a media library as is itunes!), I'd recommend you use it no matter what OS you run. that's up to personal preference, though.

So anyways, selecting those options will for sure only do it if it is requires, aka the dvd is interlaced etc....and it figures it out on it's own?

Yes, in a nutshell, that's what selecting detelecine and decomb does. It really works, you don't have to worry about it.

Oh yeah, does it matter which order the tracks are in, or does the receiver etc... just pick out the best one?

I don't know how your receiver works or, more importantly, how the xbox 360 handles such files, but i doubt order matters. and your audio settings look fine.

I would really recommend using the xbox 360 preset and modifying it by adding decomb etc rather than sticking with old settings. much has changed since 0.9.2 and therefore results have changed. once you've modified the xbox 360 preset by turning on decomb etc, you can create a custom profile that you can use rather than having to tweak all you options for every source.

[SecondHand]

Hey, I had a few more questions if you didn't mind, I REALLLLLY appreciate the help.

I am just sitting in my room testing stuff trying to figure it out and it's so tedious to try and find and research all of this, even though I have.

So....

1) DRC...So I know now it essentially makes soft scenes louder. Is it necessary and if I just leave it at 1.5 as a default, is it really going to hurt anything? Will it really make any movies worse, or as a default, will it simply help when needed if I just leave it on? I just kinda want a setting I can rip every movie for, hence me being excited about the auto deinterlace, now I can just leave it on.

2) I have read as much as I can on constant quality vs. average bitrate, and as I said in #1, I would like to have just a universal setting. I have never used CQ, I usually just have average set at 2000. I know it's personal preference, but again, input would be cool like the REAL difference between the two and which would be best.

3) Subtitles...I obviously wanted subtitles, but only if they were automatically in the movie. Like if during a scene, someone spoke in a foreign language and they put in the titles. I don't know subtitles for every movie. So I read up on it and it looked like "Autoselect and Forced Subtitles Only" was my best bet, does that sound right? Why not just forced and no auto?

4) I just ripped a chapter from Casino Royale and the picture was all green and blocky and really bad. I am assuming maybe this was because I chose to not download VLC? I think it just said I had to have it in my applications folder and that was it. And yes, I use a Macbook Pro laptop, I just didn't get why I didn't need it before, but I do now with the new snapshot? Otherwise, I have no clue why it did that.

5) With 2 pass encoding, does it take like 6 or 7 hours for everyone? Is that normal?

6) I read up about the ipod atom and it was stated it was only needed for the 5th generation. I have an iphone and very occasionally put movies on, but I should be OK without inserting the atom right? And so I can actually learn better, with it embedded, does it affect the movie in any way shape or form from players etc... or does it just hide in the background?

So basically my settings are as follows....(after applying the changes above, if you could answer the questions I will know whether to keep them )

VIDEO:
MP4 File
Codec - H.264 (x264)
Framerate (FPS) - Same as source
2 Pass Encoding - ON (Turbo First Pass: OFF)
Average Bitrate - 2000

PICTURE:
Anamorphic - Strict
Crop - Automatic
Detelecine - ON
Decomb - Default

AUDIO:
Track 1 - Source (AC3 5.1) | Code (AAC - faac) | Mixdown (DPL II) DRC = 1.5
Track 2 - Source (AC3 5.1) | Code (AC3 Pass Thru) | Mixdown (AC3 Passthru) DRC = N/A
Subtitles - Autoselect (Force Subtitles Only)

CHAPTERS:
Chapters - Enabled


I think that is it for now. Like I said, my real goal is to just have DVD quality picture and sound, with a universal setting that I can just put every movie in, hit go, and be done with it. Put everything on a small portable harddrive, and have my movies wherever I go.

Any other suggestions welcome as well as the questions above!

Thank you so much again! (I am sure I might think of something else )

[nightstrm]

1) DRC...So I know now it essentially makes soft scenes louder. Is it necessary and if I just leave it at 1.5 as a default, is it really going to hurt anything? Will it really make any movies worse, or as a default, will it simply help when needed if I just leave it on? I just kinda want a setting I can rip every movie for, hence me being excited about the auto deinterlace, now I can just leave it on.

Personal preference, but I apply DRC=1.50 to all of my AAC audio tracks as it makes things easier to hear in situations where I would use that track (iPhone, bedroom ATV, etc).

3) Subtitles...I obviously wanted subtitles, but only if they were automatically in the movie. Like if during a scene, someone spoke in a foreign language and they put in the titles. I don't know subtitles for every movie. So I read up on it and it looked like "Autoselect and Forced Subtitles Only" was my best bet, does that sound right? Why not just forced and no auto?

Use forced and autoselect for what you want to do. The reason is that "forced" subtitles can be done a couple different ways, and this covers them.

4) I just ripped a chapter from Casino Royale and the picture was all green and blocky and really bad. I am assuming maybe this was because I chose to not download VLC? I think it just said I had to have it in my applications folder and that was it. And yes, I use a Macbook Pro laptop, I just didn't get why I didn't need it before, but I do now with the new snapshot? Otherwise, I have no clue why it did that.

The Handbrake team decided to remove libdvdcss and let other programs worry about the new protection schemes out there. This allows them to concentrate on the real reason for Handbrake -- encoding.

5) With 2 pass encoding, does it take like 6 or 7 hours for everyone? Is that normal?

Entirely possible.

6) I read up about the ipod atom and it was stated it was only needed for the 5th generation. I have an iphone and very occasionally put movies on, but I should be OK without inserting the atom right? And so I can actually learn better, with it embedded, does it affect the movie in any way shape or form from players etc... or does it just hide in the background?

I do not enable it since my iPhone (or any other device that I have) doesn't require it.

[SecondHand]

Thanks for the help!

Sounds like with all that information, these are my official settings....

VIDEO:
MP4 File
Codec - H.264 (x264)
Framerate (FPS) - Same as source
2 Pass Encoding - ON (Turbo First Pass: OFF)
Average Bitrate - 2000

PICTURE:
Anamorphic - Strict
Crop - Automatic
Detelecine - ON
Decomb - Default

AUDIO:
Track 1 - Source (AC3 5.1) | Code (AAC - faac) | Mixdown (DPL II) DRC = 1.5
Track 2 - Source (AC3 5.1) | Code (AC3 Pass Thru) | Mixdown (AC3 Passthru) DRC = N/A
Subtitles - Autoselect (Force Subtitles Only)

CHAPTERS:
Chapters - Enabled


The only question you didn't answer was #2 about CQ. I am assuming you might have skipped over it since I am sure you know about it....Can you elaborate on my question please?

Thanks!

[rhester]

The probable reason for no answer is that there is no such thing as "best". It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. In general, ABR encodes are recommended only for bitrate-constrained devices, though even there one could argue that using CQ with VBV is a better solution.

If you want maximum quality, CQ/CRF is the only way to fly.

Rodney

[SecondHand]

Yeah, I mean I totally agree that it does in fact come down to person preference.

I did try to find this topic on the forum, but it's bit's and pieces.

You did say that Constant Rate Quality was the best way to go, and as I stated, I want one standard encoding settings to just to every movie for.

With that said, since I want the most maximum quality I can get, you are suggesting that I go with Constant Quality instead of Average Bit Rate?

Basically, if you were in my shoes, and wanted to get the best quality you could out of your DVD sound and picture wise, you would use Constant Quality instead of ABR?

And, pending your answer to that questions....which is the percentage if that is in fact your suggestion?

I read around and found that people were doing between 59 to 65, but again, I just want to get the best bang for my buck (while it still being under like 3GB).

I appreciate the help yet again!

[nightstrm]

The nice thing about ABR is that you can figure out how large the final encoded file will be ((video bitrate + audio bitrate) * length of movie in seconds). You lose the ability to do this when you use CRF, as the encoder will do whatever it needs to do in order to maintain a level of quality. Sometimes you end up with smaller files than with ABR, sometimes you don't.

My personal preference has been to not use ABR... I've been using varying CRF values for my Universal (i.e. AppleTV/iPhone compatible) encodes for quite awhile now.

[SecondHand]

So, using your past experiences and now, you think I should use CQ if my main goal is great quality.

I know it entirely depends on the movie etc...

However... what quality percentage do you most normally use, and what file size on average does that usually give you....

(As well as can you personally tell the difference between CQ vs. ABR (say 2000).

This is the last thing I have to figure out before I just start ripping left and right, so I am really just trying to find the happy medium for my OCD'ness.


Thanks!

[rhester]

If you are that OCD, you won't trust what we say anyway, and will experiment yourself...which is what you should have done, OCD or not, instead of asking us to tell you what you are going to like best. Experiment.

Rodney

[SecondHand]

I mean I agree in a sense...

But it's that, say trying to figure out the average file size....

I would have to rip a movie 2 times, just to compare, which is like a day of ripping essentially.

I was just trying to get a more general idea from the professionals around here who have used it longer and know more so what they are doing which they felt was the best way to go.

Plus, even ripping an individual chapter, I don't always know necessarily the key points TO be looking out for.

[nightstrm]

If you're just starting your encoding... I'd wait for .9.3 to be released (should be soon) and experiment with the Universal (if you need compatibility with multiple Apple devices), or the AppleTV presets -- both use CRF instead of ABR.

[rhester]

Plus, even ripping an individual chapter, I don't always know necessarily the key points TO be looking out for.

Isn't the point that if it looks good to you, it's good enough?

Rodney

[SecondHand]

Yeah, thanks both of you.

I mean i downloaded snapshot 5.

I just tryed encoding a chapter, one CQ of 65% and the other ABR of 2000.

To me, it was very very hard to tell a difference, honestly, I do not even think I did.

Can you guys really see a difference between the two?