Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

General questions or discussion about HandBrake, Video and/or audio transcoding, trends etc.
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YaBoyShredderson
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Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by YaBoyShredderson »

Anyone experimented with ai upscaling? Using topaz video enhancer or some other similar technology to convert a 1080p bluray up to 8k, to be reencoded back to 1080p? This kind of upscaling seems quite promising from i have seen. Mabe even keeping a higher res like 4k?
rollin_eng
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by rollin_eng »

Why would you want to upscale 1080 to 8k, then convert to 1080?
musicvid
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by musicvid »

Tanstaafl
YaBoyShredderson
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by YaBoyShredderson »

rollin_eng wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:51 pm Why would you want to upscale 1080 to 8k, then convert to 1080?
Upscale to 8k to improve quality, downsample to 1080p to save space. Downsampled content looks better than native content. So like 4k video, downsampled to 1080p will look better than if it was shot natively at 1080p. Obviously its not going to retain the same sharpness as if it stayed at 4/8k but it should, at least in theory look better than before.
rollin_eng
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by rollin_eng »

Upscaling wont improve quality.
YaBoyShredderson
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by YaBoyShredderson »

rollin_eng wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:30 pm Upscaling wont improve quality.
From what ive seen topaz video enhancer ai works pretty well, it takes a while, sometimes a few seconds for each frame, but they do look very good. Its not the kind of upscaling your tv does, where its just mapping a lower res image to more pixels. I dunno what it does but it really does work well.
rollin_eng
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by rollin_eng »

If thats the case just buy the DVD and upscale to 32k :)
musicvid
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by musicvid »

Upscale to 8k to improve quality,
Wishful thinking, otherwise called "alchemy."
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Rodeo
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by Rodeo »

I understand the idea of "enhanced" upscaling for playback on a high-resolution display, but upscaling then downscaling sounds a lot like just applying a sharpening filter. I wonder whether the results would be any better than using a dedicated sharpening filter; I suspect not consistently so, but maybe sometimes, who knows? The optimal amount of sharpening will also depend on the size of your display and viewing distance, so not something I'd recommend applying generically to all your encodes.
Woodstock
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by Woodstock »

Despite what you see in crime dramas, you really cannot get better quality by upscaling. You can make educated guesses as to what a single pixel converted to 16 might look like, but it is just a guess. It is influenced not by what was really recorded, but what the algorithms used can create that "mostly doesn't disagree" with the original.

An interesting experiment would be to take an actual 8K source, shrink it to 1080p, then compare an AI-upscaled-to-8k picture looks like. But, you will probably find that whatever quality the original 8K image had, it's suffered badly from the journey.
YaBoyShredderson
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by YaBoyShredderson »

Woodstock wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 pm Despite what you see in crime dramas, you really cannot get better quality by upscaling. You can make educated guesses as to what a single pixel converted to 16 might look like, but it is just a guess. It is influenced not by what was really recorded, but what the algorithms used can create that "mostly doesn't disagree" with the original.

An interesting experiment would be to take an actual 8K source, shrink it to 1080p, then compare an AI-upscaled-to-8k picture looks like. But, you will probably find that whatever quality the original 8K image had, it's suffered badly from the journey.
No doubt an upscaled image is worse than an image at that res natively, but the program i used works very well. Its not a simple upscaler to map pixels to larger display, but actually "adds detail". Obviously it cannot "enhance" the image and extract true detail that isnt present in the image in the first place, but its pretty good at taking, for example, a few darkened pixels that are supposed to be a pore, and actually making look correct.
YaBoyShredderson
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by YaBoyShredderson »

Rodeo wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:41 pm I understand the idea of "enhanced" upscaling for playback on a high-resolution display, but upscaling then downscaling sounds a lot like just applying a sharpening filter. I wonder whether the results would be any better than using a dedicated sharpening filter; I suspect not consistently so, but maybe sometimes, who knows? The optimal amount of sharpening will also depend on the size of your display and viewing distance, so not something I'd recommend applying generically to all your encodes.
That was kind of what i was getting at. Not sure tbh. I did try and the image does look noticably sharper, and i cant see any artifacts that are associates with sharpening. So maybe its a good way to go about it.
rollin_eng
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by rollin_eng »

Woodstock wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 pm An interesting experiment would be to take an actual 8K source, shrink it to 1080p, then compare an AI-upscaled-to-8k picture looks like. But, you will probably find that whatever quality the original 8K image had, it's suffered badly from the journey.
If anyone wants to try this...

https://images.nasa.gov/details-First-8 ... Space.html
oRBIT2002
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by oRBIT2002 »

I've experimented a bit with "TopazLabs Video Enhance AI". It's pretty promising but I think it works best on animated/CGI material at the moment. I upscaled one of my animated DVD's to 1080p for a test and it looks really good. It has pretty good sharpening/noise-removing-stuff implemented that works very well for animations.
Rorchach91
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by Rorchach91 »

rollin_eng wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:30 pm Upscaling wont improve quality.
I've heard the AI upscaling do enhance the graphic quality, it using a certain algorithm to blur the pixel and add noise to the graphic, perhaps do dithering too. No doubt that the AI upscaled video does no longer represent its original object which been filmed, it is somehow distorted, but make the graphic looks pretty & enhanced for sure.
mduell
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by mduell »

Much like the x264 psychovisual optimizations, you can do things that look better subjectively, but objectively have reduced the quality of the video.
musicvid
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by musicvid »

TopazSmall.jpg
Test Setup: I took a 2712x2400 original, reduced it to 50% (no sharpening), and then upscaled to original size using Bicubic, Lanczos 4, and Topaz AI.

Full Size Image for download here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kdUk- ... Gw458VQvD4
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musicvid
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Re: Ai upscaling - 1080p to 8k to 1080p

Post by musicvid »

TopazDiffSmall.jpg
Now that you're as impressed as I was by the sharpening, Here are the enhanced Difference Composites. You can see that Topaz is definitely an enhancement, and not an accurate representation.
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