question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

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Djfe
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question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Djfe »

I have simple question:
if you set constant quality for the x264 encoder to 0 will it really be lossless regardless the chosen profile? (Baseline/Main/High) so that the only difference is a higher bitrate for the encoded file with the main profile and that this file is easier to decode?
(I'm asking this for editing videos, since my Premiere Version doesn't accept certain Containers like MKV/Webm (yes, I could probably remux to MP4 easily, but the question still remains))

My question isn't really covered by the wiki, so I'm asking it here
https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/Constant ... x264andRF0
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JohnAStebbins
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by JohnAStebbins »

Lossless x264 requires high444 profile. Since this profile is not explicitly available in the GUI, the only way to get lossless encoding with the GUI is to set the profile to "auto". If you set another profile, HandBrake will modify the RF value to 1.
Djfe
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Djfe »

It would be cool, if the GUI could communicate that in the future, or at least the wiki article, I linked above, because it is far from obvious that you need to set the profile to auto

Why isn't high444 available as a profile btw.? (not tested enough or unfinished?)
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by HandBrake User »

Djfe wrote: Fri May 22, 2015 10:03 pm It would be cool, if the GUI could communicate that in the future, or at least the wiki article, I linked above, because it is far from obvious that you need to set the profile to auto

Why isn't high444 available as a profile btw.? (not tested enough or unfinished?)
Yes I came from reading this thread and also later found out that I wasn't encoding losslessly...so why is this option still not present in v1.0.7?

Aso, on a related note, it's still not exactly RGB(hence lossless), because:
Image
still says YUV for colour space and 4:2:0 for chroma subsampling, where it should be RGB and or 4:4:4 chroma subsampling, effectively equal to source content thus having the end file be mathematically 100% lossless, and not 99% or 99.99% ...

Please explain... :? Here's my activity log if it helps: https://pastebin.com/gSvqp610
Djfe
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Djfe »

Was your rf 0 and your profile set to auto?
What is the source color space from your .avi?
I wasn't able to find that information in the log you provided.
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Ritsuka
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Ritsuka »

HandBrake pipeline is 4:2:0 YUV only right now. There is no way to output anything else.
Djfe
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Djfe »

interesting
now I wonder, whether John can confirm that, because he wrote the opposite earlier in this thread (I think) ^^
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Rodeo
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Rodeo »

The High 4:4:4 Predictive Profile does support 4:2:0. Encoding will be lossless relative to the 4:2:0 input provided to the encoder. Prior conversions by HandBrake (10->8-bit, RGB/4:4:4/4:2:2/whatever->4:2:0, downscaling etc.) will indeed be lossy.
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by HandBrake User »

Djfe wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:26 am Was your rf 0 and your profile set to auto?
What is the source color space from your .avi?
I wasn't able to find that information in the log you provided.
Yes and yes; RGB - it's a fraps footage I took with "Force lossless RGB capture (may be slower)" checked under movies tab...
Image
Ritsuka wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:28 am HandBrake pipeline is 4:2:0 YUV only right now. There is no way to output anything else.
Ohhh, that would explain it.......well why not? Is there some sort of limitation in handbrake engine or you have just decided to not include RGB/YUV 4:4:4 to complement the lossless quality value hence effectively outputting *true* lossless regardless if source was RGB or YUV 4:4:4 (or any others of equivalence) for "reasons" - whatever they may be?

I'm guessing this also answers why the "High 4:4:4 Predictive", High 4:2:2 and High 10 profiles are not present in the dropdown menu(as described here as they should be?) Since Handbrake can't do YUV 4:4:4(and the others), there would be no point in adding those other profiles in as explicit options, right?
Rodeo wrote: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:11 pm The High 4:4:4 Predictive Profile does support 4:2:0. Encoding will be lossless relative to the 4:2:0 input provided to the encoder. Prior conversions by HandBrake (10->8-bit, RGB/4:4:4/4:2:2/whatever->4:2:0, downscaling etc.) will indeed be lossy.
Then that's not exactly lossless.....so instead of the tooltip stating "A value of 0 means lossless and will result in a file size that is larger than original source, unless the source was also lossless. . . ." should say something like "A value of 0 means lossless, provided the source is also in 4:2:0 YUV as this is what Handbrake is currently limited to, and will result in a file size that is larger than original source, unless the source was also lossless. . . ." or something similar....?
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Djfe »

there is a point in adding them, it just means more work than switching a few parameters on the encoder.
(forgot about the pipeline, thx for pointing that out)

It has probably to do with the fact, that 444 was barely supported back in the day (and still is), rgb even less.

RGB also doesn't make much sense. (only Screencaptures and I don't see any difference between rgb and yuv444)

10-bit support is more of a newer thing and it only makes sense when your footage had been recorded in 10-bit.

If you explicitly want 444 for some reason, I can recommend learning ffmpeg's syntax and using that for transcoding ;)

(If I said something wrong, then correct me pls)
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Rodeo
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Rodeo »

Many of our filters aren't colorspace-agnostic. Support for 10-bit and other colorspaces is feasible (and presumably, on our long term roadmap), but it's work and that takes time :)
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by mduell »

Tooltips are a quick reference targeting most users, not an exhaustive list of capabilities and limitations. Most users are providing 4:2:0 content.
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by HandBrake User »

Djfe wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:54 am there is a point in adding them, it just means more work than switching a few parameters on the encoder.
(forgot about the pipeline, thx for pointing that out)
Ah, so then they have just decided to just not add it as an explicit option then?
Djfe wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:54 amIt has probably to do with the fact, that 444 was barely supported back in the day (and still is), rgb even less.

RGB also doesn't make much sense. (only Screencaptures and I don't see any difference between rgb and yuv444)
True, but you'd think by now there'd at least be some options for it, no? Besides, in an ideal world, you would want everything to be as perfect as can be right...? Hence RGB...
Djfe wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:54 am10-bit support is more of a newer thing and it only makes sense when your footage had been recorded in 10-bit.
Isn't AVI 24-bit by default? Or am I confusing it with something else....? ..probably am - 8 bit per colour channel for RGB which is where that 24-bit comes from in total....? Otherwise MediaInfo would at least explicitly state otherwise?
Djfe wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:54 amIf you explicitly want 444 for some reason, I can recommend learning ffmpeg's syntax and using that for transcoding ;)
I see....does it do RGB passthrough or no? Or there is ZERO support for RGB transcoding...? In which case I am forced to keep these fraps footages as master then, since no current program can touch it without converting it into something else?
Rodeo wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:46 pm Many of our filters aren't colorspace-agnostic. Support for 10-bit and other colorspaces is feasible (and presumably, on our long term roadmap), but it's work and that takes time :)
I thought you have some sort of automatic algorithm that detects such? Or even an option for the user to specify this is so and so, in the advanced options or something and it's set to normal by default for those who just wanna do quick transcode and that's it...?
mduell wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:32 pm Tooltips are a quick reference targeting most users, not an exhaustive list of capabilities and limitations. Most users are providing 4:2:0 content.
And what about those who are the other users with different content...?
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Rodeo
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Rodeo »

HandBrake User wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:11 am
Rodeo wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:46 pm Many of our filters aren't colorspace-agnostic. Support for 10-bit and other colorspaces is feasible (and presumably, on our long term roadmap), but it's work and that takes time :)
I thought you have some sort of automatic algorithm that detects such? Or even an option for the user to specify this is so and so, in the advanced options or something and it's set to normal by default for those who just wanna do quick transcode and that's it...?
If you want to add support for additional colorspaces to all our filters, be my guest… surely it's trivial and very quick, else we'd have done it already.
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by mduell »

HandBrake User wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:11 am
Djfe wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:54 am10-bit support is more of a newer thing and it only makes sense when your footage had been recorded in 10-bit.
Isn't AVI 24-bit by default? Or am I confusing it with something else....? ..probably am - 8 bit per colour channel for RGB which is where that 24-bit comes from in total....? Otherwise MediaInfo would at least explicitly state otherwise?
If AVI is 24 bit that leaves you 6 bits short of 10 bit per channel YUV.
HandBrake User wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:11 am
mduell wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:32 pm Tooltips are a quick reference targeting most users, not an exhaustive list of capabilities and limitations. Most users are providing 4:2:0 content.
And what about those who are the other users with different content...?
Those rare cases can do a bit of additional research beyond the tooltips.
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by HandBrake User »

Here's an image of various YUV ranges:
Image
Of course you'd pick the top one, no? Or at least whatever source is.
Rodeo wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am
HandBrake User wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:11 am
Rodeo wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:46 pm Many of our filters aren't colorspace-agnostic. Support for 10-bit and other colorspaces is feasible (and presumably, on our long term roadmap), but it's work and that takes time :)
I thought you have some sort of automatic algorithm that detects such? Or even an option for the user to specify this is so and so, in the advanced options or something and it's set to normal by default for those who just wanna do quick transcode and that's it...?
If you want to add support for additional colorspaces to all our filters, be my guest… surely it's trivial and very quick, else we'd have done it already.
Okay, fair point... I was about mention that ffmpeg and x264 supports both YUV 4:4:4 and RGB but you've already implied that is(handbrake is built on top of ffmpeg and x264, and others, right? :?: :| ..or so I am led to believe...)...

But at least in regards to 10 bit encoding, MeGUI has an option for it:
Image
Maybe you can ask them how they implemented it and then add it to Handbrake...?
mduell wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:31 pm
HandBrake User wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:11 am
Djfe wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:54 am10-bit support is more of a newer thing and it only makes sense when your footage had been recorded in 10-bit.
Isn't AVI 24-bit by default? Or am I confusing it with something else....? ..probably am - 8 bit per colour channel for RGB which is where that 24-bit comes from in total....? Otherwise MediaInfo would at least explicitly state otherwise?
If AVI is 24 bit that leaves you 6 bits short of 10 bit per channel YUV.
Oh so it counts the total bits, not bits per colour... I also found out that most games, like 99% of them, are 8-bit(or less) only anyways, and there are only like 1% of them, such as Alien Isolation, that have an option for 10 bit (ie deep colour or something similar of what they call it in their options - but of course you would require a 10 bit or higher monitor to play it in that bit depth correctly...) and higher... :lol: :oops: :P

mduell wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:31 pm
HandBrake User wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:11 am
mduell wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:32 pm Tooltips are a quick reference targeting most users, not an exhaustive list of capabilities and limitations. Most users are providing 4:2:0 content.
And what about those who are the other users with different content...?
Those rare cases can do a bit of additional research beyond the tooltips.
Well I had assumed Handbrake was a comprehensive easy to use for even these rare cases.....for newbs and advance users alike... :?
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Rodeo
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by Rodeo »

We know how to support 10-bit internally… it's not a matter of skill, but of time.
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Re: question: x264 RF 0 -> What are the differences between the available profiles?

Post by rollin_eng »

Rodeo wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:05 pm We know how to support 10-bit internally… it's not a matter of skill, but of time.
Yeah but in megui you just click a box, can't you just do that? Doesn't seem like you need a lot of skill for that.

:)
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