Necessary feedback on the forums (Got a gripe? Keep it here)

[dnlholtv]

I registered just to say this: I have been using Handbrake for a few weeks, and have read the forums on several occasions to learn about the features. What is striking is that almost every single tech support thread I've come across here is filled with the most pompous, arrogant, dismissive juveniles I've ever come across online - which is saying a lot.

Granted, the response to the question is usually there, but they are usually hidden deep in the threads, surrounded by several posts with unnecessary vitriol and wild ad hominem tangents, and always accompanied with different variations of "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION N00B," but with less finesse. What's most shocking, is that at least one of these people appears to be an active Handbrake developer.

It is sad to see such a fine program being tarnished by the worst tech support community in the open source world - again, that's saying a lot.

Call me a troll and perma-ban me - but this had to be said.

As for the program, it's great. I was in the scene as a ripper about ten (!) years ago - that was the time when VBR and 2-pass encoding were being rolled out -, and only recently started (re-)encoding personal stuff due to PS3 requiring it. I'm glad to see that the need for 5+ programs to encode a movie properly has pretty much disappeared thanks to tools like Handbrake.

[rhester]

I'm allowing this (and moving it to a more appropriate location) only to keep it contained - so folks, if you want to [Censored] about the service (or lack thereof) around here, this is the place to do it. In fact, this thread is the ONLY place to do it, effective immediately.

Let the flame wars begin - but don't expect any sort of reply. I've wasted enough time with this already.

Rodney

[jbrjake]

Granted, the response to the question is usually there, but they are usually hidden deep in the threads, surrounded by several posts with unnecessary vitriol and wild ad hominem tangents, and always accompanied with different variations of "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION N00B," but with less finesse. What's most shocking, is that at least one of these people appears to be an active Handbrake developer.

As an experienced scene ripper, surely you are aware that this is standard operating procedure on video encoding forums.

For example, I must assume you're deeply familiar with Doom9's forum, since anyone who knows anything about video encoding hangs out there.

Our rules are actually *less* strict about things like searching than theirs are:

http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm

Forum rules - last revision 09/13/2003

Welcome to Doom9's forum. In order to make your stay as pleasant and constructive as possible please take your time to read through this document, it will help you navigate the pits and traps this community has created for new members These rules can be changed without notice though normally we announce changes via announcement in all the forums.

1) Read up before asking! There are tons of guides, FAQs and each forum has a dedicated Q&A thread with additional info.

1a) Use the search function before posting. Chances are your question has already been answered.

2) Respect the netiquette: Lurk and get to know the forum before you post.

3) Keep the focus: Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved, locked or simply be deleted.

4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the respective moderator and if the moderator can't help you send a private message to Doom9.

5) Do not spam. No blatant advertising.

6) No warez, cracks, serials or illegally obtained copyrighted content! Links to content of a questionable nature, asking for, offering, or asking for help/helping to process such content in any way or form is not tolerated.
7) Keep the size of personal images down.

No cross posting. Post your message once, to the appropriate forum and nowhere else or it will be locked or deleted without warning.

9) Use a title that describes the content of your post. Don't use all caps or special characters to draw attention.

10) Do not send questions pertaining to topics of discussion on this board via personal messages or email to Moderators or Admins, they will be ignored.

11) Don't post just to increase your number of posts. If you have nothing to say on a certain matter then don't post. The number of posts on this board has no direct relation to the experience of a member.
12) How NOT to post on this forum:

5 minutes after your initial post you reply to your own post writing something like "Why is nobody helping me? I'm sure you know the answer". Once somebody replies to your thread but doesn't give you exactly the answer you've been expecting you insult them.

Do not ask "what's best" because this question cannot be answered objectively. Each and everyone has their own view about what's best in a certain area. The best is what works best for you!

13) The official language is English. Outside the translator forum English is the only allowed language.

14) Multiple registrations are prohibited and are grounds for immediate account deletion.

15) Political discussion not directly related to DVD backup issues are prohibited, as is any discussion on religion and religious matters.

16) Instructions by the moderator team are to be followed.

If you don't comply with these rules you'll have to face a set of sanctions.

Perhaps, though, you also need to refresh yourself on the basics, as explained by Doom9 himself:

Doom9: "How To Accept A Gift Properly"
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=52597

General conduct - or how to accept a gift properly
Recently there has been quite some frustration in the moderator team on this board. As you may or may not know, we're a bunch of roughly 40 people who happen to like DVD backups and surrounding issues and we have decided to put a certain amount of our free time running a forum that has become one of the largest and most influental ones on the web. And while it's nice to be associated with a successful project it's mostly a lot of work. It starts with upsetting your girlfriend because you just have to make this post before going out with her, upset your friends by coming 5 minutes too late because you just had to close down that flamewar, staying up all night trying to fix server problems (okay, that's mostly an admin task), and the list goes on. Bottom line, it's not such a fun job as it first might appear to be. Just ask one of the moderators that have resigned in the past.

Now, every team member has signed rules for moderators that demand them to uphold the forum rules (see the top of this forum for a link) and to help out people, to the best of their abilities. They're not doing that for themselves, they're doing that for the greater good of all the people here. I'm sure you can understand that when it comes to helping people.. but what about those darned rules?
They are used to govern this place and to make sure there's a certain order. Every place you'll ever go to has certain rules. It starts with the rules established in the law of your country. And depending on the place you go there are certain additional rules that you must follow, like dress nicely if you go to a fancy restaurant (try to get in with sandals and shorts and you know what I'm talking about.. I have firsthand experience in that area). To make an analogy.. this forum is another fancy place. There are many forums out there dedicated to DVD backups and video processing in general. This place has never aimed to become the biggest, in fact we're quite content not being the largest board out there. Our aim is to put quality over quantity. This is a high goal, and one we have to work to attain each and every day.

The rules, and the moderation team enforcing them, is aimed at keep this place productive and keep the standards up. A question once asked and answered isn't just a quick fix for somebody.. it's a source of information for the entire community and all the guest visitors (of which we have a great many every day). Guides and FAQs are aimed to capture some of that knowledge, compress it and make it available for the whole wide world to see.
The mere reason I started my site in the first place is that I found a lot of info in forums, but there was no centralized resource. We're trying each and every day to capture a part of the wealth of information that is available in this forum and try to put it into a compressed forum where people can easily locate it. Unfortunately, this is a very hard and constant task and I'm not saying we're always up to it, in fact we often fail and our documents are not up-to-date with current events. But as we're doing this in our free time and get no recompensation for it I believe that you should not hold that against us. After all we come back tomorrow and try again..

In our aim to provide quality over quantity we do not only set the standard for our own work very high, we also raise the bar for the average community member. This isn't just another forum, this is a community and the essence of community is helping each other, be there for each other. It's a moderator's duty to do just that. And it's a member's duty to do the same. If you post a problem, you must not just expect a quick fix and then leave forever, rather, if you find out the solution on your own or in another forum post, you should inform the rest of this community (even just editing your own thread mentioning that the problem has been solved and the thread can be removed is acceptable.. it allows us to get rid of a thread that would just clutter up the forum).
If you have a problem that cannot be immediately solved, you should be willing to put a certain amount of energy into it. This starts with posting logfiles and give a detailed and useful description of the problem, allowing reproduction of such problem. And it continues by being willing to waste some of your free time to help find the cause of your problem, a solution to it and let other members of this community know about it so that no other person will face the same problem and not find a solution in this place.
In my over 3 years running this site I have invested I don't know how much time writing lengthy problem reports, trying out untested software, trying to help developers find out what causes a problem and how to solve it. I have done that without asking for something in return. I gladly invested my time knowing that in the end the result would help a lot of other people. That is the essence of being part of a community. You give some, and you get some. For my part, I get some donations and encouraging words, and the stats that steadily go up and the knowledge that I have achieved to create a success story that would've gone beyond my wildest dreams only 3 years ago is enough to satisfy me.

Now, we have established how the moderation team gives and how you should get somethng and give something in return. Moderators and admins do it, and many members of this community do it.

So why am I writing this? The larger this communtiy grows, the more members there are that are actually not members of a community, but are just trying to profit from the community. Imagine the p2p user leeching gigs of data but not offering a single file in return. Those people come here, expecting a quick fix for their problems, but do not have the decency of contributing something of their own. That starts by not even making a useful problem description, call software buggy when it isn't, not being willing to give a detailed problem report even when asked for, or perform tests when somebody asks a critical question that could help to figure out the cause of a problem, not being grateful when people invest their time trying to help.
In recent days such behaviour has mostly been manifested in certain forums where the moderation team is mostly consisting of developers. These people are busy with their applications already and it's a great honor to have them here sharing community duties. If you're a programmer, or have created a considerable work, you take a certain pride in that work and you don't like to see it dragged through the mud. As much as I don't like destructive criticism when it comes to my sites, guides or codec comparisons I often find myself on the receiving end of remarks that underappreciate my work or that are just plain insulting. It is no fun to be treated like that.

Similarly, some of the developers here on this board have to put up with things that are unacceptable. You don't call a software buggy unless you can proove that beyond reasonable doubt and that means you try multiple sources, configurations, even ask friends to verify and when you post a problem report you just call it that.. It hurts to see your own software be called buggy when the user is screwing up. By the time this fact has been established dozens of people might already have gotten the wrong impression by an inaccurate forum post. If the number of such posts goes up (and it certainly has over time) it starts to get to you.
Imagine this scenario: When you were little your mom told you never to call "Help" unless you really need it. Because if you play pranks on people and scream for help all the time even if you need it, the one time you actually do need help people will no longer listen to you. Similarly, the one time you actually discover a bug, the person who could help you / fix it will no longer listen. That's why you should read up first by asking and perform your own verification tests before screaming "bug".

And then, even if you made it here the guy on the other side doesn't owe you anything. Did you pay for a service to be rendered? No. Did you ever do anything for the people you're expecting help from? Most likely no. Imagine asking strangers in the street for a quarter. They don't have to give you one, it's their own choice. Even if in a similar situation you would give a quarter to the next guy if you had one, that still doesn't mean that the time you need that quarter somebody is going to have to give it to you. But, chances are just a bit higher if you're generous, that somebody will eventually be generous with you. Back to the forum, if you contribute towards other people's solutions and helping developers identify and solve problems it's more likely that you'll be treated with the same courtesy if you have a problem and present your case in a proper fashion.

Bottom line of my rambling: This community works because its members give and they take. Those who only aim to take will eventually be singled out and will most likely run into a strike or two along the way. Not knowing the value of community and the rules governing it they will not use the proper channels to lodge a complaint but just start throwing insults around on this board, other boards or their own personal websites and they will eventually find themselves on a suspension. So to those who are not willing to give in return for taking something: Be warned, the rules governing this community are designed to discourage such behaviour and the team running this place is commited to upholding our standards and the quality of this community and we'll use the rules to the fullest extent possible to ensure that people abusing of this community will eventually presented with the bill. If you ever feel like moderator or user xyz owes you something, take a long look in the mirror and ask you "would I have done the same for that guy?". If the answer is yes (and I believe it hardly ever is) you should give the guy the benefit of a doubt, after all you're not holding every fault your closest friend make against him/her. And if the answer is no you should reconsider your membership here.

Doom9: "How To Drive To Work: AKA, How To File A Good Bug Report"
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96137

How to drive to work - aka how to file a good bug report
It is perhaps the most frustrating thing ever for any programmer to be slapped with a "your program doesn't work". When you write software, you obviously take some time testing certain scenarios and wouldn't release something you know doesn't work, and if you know a feature doesn't work properly, you warn people about this upfront. Therefore, it is crucial that if you want your problem to be fixed, you make a good report that helps the people writing the software that failed on you, to correct whichever issue it is that you may be experiencing.

But before delving into details let's have a look at an example for the less tech savvy:

Suppose one morning you get out of your house, to your car and want to drive to work. But, you cannot start your car. Now you could call the shop right away , and they'd probably send someone over for good money (the more urgent it is the more it will cost obviously). Or you could think for a moment first. Do you still have any gas left in the tank? It's unlikely that you don't, but perhaps you've just barely managed to drive home last night and forgot to stop for gas. So, the money for the service technician would be ill spent if he just has to fill up your car, wouldn't you agree?
There are other quite obvious things: you picked the car key of your wife (first indication is probably that it doesn't fit, and if it fits you still can't turn it). There's no need to have somebody over for that either.
Or then there's the battery angle. Could it be that your battery doesn't have enough juice left? If you open the door and the light doesn't go on, if you try turning on the lights and they don't work, if you try the stereo and that doesn't work either.. it's a strong indicator. So, if that is it, if you call for a technician and tell him what care, make and model you have, he can make sure to not have to drive back to get the proper battery once he's figured out the battery was the problem.

Then we have what most people do - the casual "under the hood" glance. You may not know what you're looking for, but popping the hood and having a look to see if something is off, has never hurt anybody (unless you do it after driving and opening the valve of the radiator). Perhaps you see some loose cables? Perhaps you can even reconnect them because its obvious where they belong (battery cables, etc.). Or you might see some damage by a wild animal. Either way, if you see something is off and you cannot fix it, you can at least tell the people you're going to call about what you saw, thus perhaps giving them a clue what might be wrong and come prepared.

Or, you could call right away, and on top of having to pay be laughed at if your tank turns out to be empty or you picked the wrong key. You may not mind, but I'm pretty sure the next time you'll check for the obvious.. nobody likes paying to be laughed at (okay, if you go to a comedy club it might be different). And in case of the key mismatch, you might've solved the problem on your own, in a lot less time, and without any additional cost.

So, what do I want to say with that: even if you pay for support, to get your problem fixed in the shortest possible amount of time, it pays out to be informed and tell the people that come to help you as much as possible about your problem. It'll save you time and money.


Now turning back to software. You either pay for support (and usually you get very little) with the price of the software, or you have to get a support contract that costs extra. The software we're with here on this forum usually doesn't come with much of a support entitlement, and when it comes to free software, there is no support entitlement whatsoever and whomever decides to help you does so on his time, so provides a service for you at no cost for you, but cost for him (time).

It is therefore crucial that you make a significant effort to be as concise about any report you make and any question you may have as possible. If you encounter a problem, you need to go through the following steps:

1) can my problem be reproduced? That doesn't end with "doing the exact same thing again". Your problem might be dependant on the steps you take, the "material" you use, and even your computer. For instance if you use movie A and the problem happens, then use movie B and it does not, you must mention this as it points to a problem that only occurrs with a certain source. Or, if a software has always been working for you using certain settings, and now you're trying different settings, it is reasonable to assume that your settings have something to do with the problem and thus you must mention which settings you're using (and especially the difference to those that worked). It is also not unreasonable that you try to find out which setting change caused your problem. If you changed 3 things to get from a working to a nonworking state, start back in the working state, activate the first setting, try again, if it still works, activate the second setting, etc. That way when you report the problem you can point the finger at the offending option.

If you cannot reliably reproduce a problem, there is a very good chance that the problem lies somewhere between the chair, your PC, or the configuration of your PC and the software you're trying to blame and the people who wrote it are perfectly innocent.

2) try to pinpoint the problem
This starts with the above. Find a scenario that works, then gradually proceed to one that does not. Then describe the working and the non working scenario in great detail.

3) give important information about your setup
For instance program versions. If you use AviSynth, whether or not you use the stable 2.5.5 or the 2.5.6 betas might be very important. If the software requires a certain runtime (java or .net for instance), the version you're using might be important.

4) you can never give enough info
While from a problem solving standpoint, the info to really pinpoint a problem is normally not that much, you as a user will not know that. And so to prevent a lenghty pingpoing session in which you have to constantly give more info as you're being asked for, just try to give everything from the getgo. I realize this requires a certain extra effort and time, but that time is well spent as it normally permits others to more quickly solve your problem.

5) indicate what you have tried to solve the problem on your own
This is to ensure that the people trying to help you won't suggest you try something you've already tried.. this also helps others to help you more quickly.

6) Nobody owes you a (quick resolution) or a fix unless you've specifically paid for the solution. Anything else is goodwill..

[boots2x]

I'll add my bit... I sorta understand what the original poster is talking about - I've watched a couple of users slapped down. Buuuttt... almost invariably they were either being stupid, unnecessarily obtuse and difficult or just plain un-helpful! How many times have we seen threads locked for providing NO information except a plea for miraculously accurate help!

Here's another explanation from the FreeNAS board that explained it wonderfully for me... http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Have fun!

Boots

[Mooneybeams]

I registered just to say this: I have been using Handbrake for a few weeks, and have read the forums on several occasions to learn about the features. What is striking is that almost every single tech support thread I've come across here is filled with the most pompous, arrogant, dismissive juveniles I've ever come across online - which is saying a lot.

Well, I'm a newbie and I have to say I haven't come accross that at all.

I'm a complete technical idiot, which is never fun for people with a lot of knowledge, and OK the answers I received weren't paragraphs long and full of cuddles and hand holding but that's really not important. What is important is that a busy person took the time out of their own life to a. answer my question, b. give me helpful advice and c. bear with my ignorance. As far as I'm concerned, this is more than kind and the most that anyone could ask.

So - thanks to the developers for putting together such a great programme and thanks also for helping me to understand how to use it.

[Albo]

I'm a complete technical idiot, which is never fun for people with a lot of knowledge, and OK the answers I received weren't paragraphs long and full of cuddles and hand holding but that's really not important. What is important is that a busy person took the time out of their own life to a. answer my question, b. give me helpful advice and c. bear with my ignorance. As far as I'm concerned, this is more than kind and the most that anyone could ask.

Totally agree with that statement. The folks either here or on IRC have always been helpful.

[bigtoque]

I've just started using these forums and just had my first post "disapproved"...

Some guy asks about having a dropped framerate and I respond stating that I have also encountered a similar problem and then get a message saying "disapproved blah blah blah activity log blah blah blah".

First off, I was within the "rules" as you guys like to put it. I wasn't requesting any support for anything, merely letting someone else know that they weren't the only person experiencing the problem they were having.
Second, even if I was requesting help, what the hell is with needing a post "approved"? If someone wishes to help and I forgot to include some pertinent information, they'll ask for the missing information. If I forgot it and they don't want to bother asking for it because "I should know better and include it in my post" then they just don't bother trying to help. It's a very simple concept.

People usually like having activity on their forums, so I don't know why you guys make posting such a pain in the ass.

[TedJ]

I would argue that you weren't having the same problem, you were experiencing the same symptom which can be caused by any number of underlying problems, including hardware issues.

I'll admit the whole concept of post approval is contentious, and speaking as one of the moderation team I wish there had been a viable alternative but we couldn't think of one. If you've been here any length of time you'll realise that there are little more than a dozen people, including devs and mods, who actually answer ANY users questions. Once you've accepted that the pool of people willing to answer questions is limited, doesn't it make sense to set rules in place to allow them to answer questions as quickly and painlessly as possible? I've lost count of the number of times where I've seen a question has been posed and up to 12 responses have gone back and forth asking for the pertinent information... only to find that once the logs have been provided that the initial poster was mistaken or being downright misleading.

Please remember that Handbrake is a free project which the developers and moderators pursue in their free time... I've certainly never seen a cheque for my services.

Again, I know that this policy seems harsh and draconian but with time being a limited resource wouldn't you rather the developers spend more of it actually developing, rather than coaxing information out of users that they agreed to provide when posting as part of the forum rules?

[rhester]

I'd also like to point out that only new users are moderated (I believe for the first 30 days), because the vast majority of our drive-by "HELP!!! HandBr4k3 isnt working d00ds!!!" posts (that contain about that much relevant information, if not less) are by first-time posters.

We really don't ask for Activity Logs for our health or because we like making things a pain in the ass for people - it's actually quite the opposite. The odds of us *not* being able to accurately diagnose an issue _on the very first try_ *with* a valid, full Activity Log is less than 5%.

I'd also like to wholly agree with TedJ - the far and away vast majority of "me too!" (read: I'm having the same exact problem as the OP) posts are _never_ the same issue. Symptom != cause.

Rodney

[jbrjake]

Some guy asks about having a dropped framerate and I respond stating that I have also encountered a similar problem and then get a message saying "disapproved blah blah blah activity log blah blah blah".

First off, I was within the "rules" as you guys like to put it. I wasn't requesting any support for anything, merely letting someone else know that they weren't the only person experiencing the problem they were having.

You *really* don't get it, do you?

That sort of nonsense is *exactly* why we require logs. Without that, there is no evidence you *are* experiencing the same problem and you certainly would *not* have been helping to isolate or resolve the issue. Your post would have been pure noise. Saying "me too" helps absolutely no one. Do you have *any* clue how many times people have claimed that, only for us to discover in the end that they were doing something totally different, and only thought they were encountering the same problem because they couldn't be bothered to read the logs closely?

[crosscheck]

I'm old school. The growing sense of entitlement with each generation turns me off. I think if everyone tried starting their own business and running it even just one year, there would be a lot less whining about things in general. You'd at least gain a solid appreciation of how low class and disrespectful it is to diss someone who gave you something for free when they don't owe you a thing.

To handbrake devs: You made some really, really good software and are freely sharing it with anyone who wants it.

So thank you.

[MetalImpaler]

I'm old school. The growing sense of entitlement with each generation turns me off. I think if everyone tried starting their own business and running it even just one year, there would be a lot less whining about things in general. You'd at least gain a solid appreciation of how low class and disrespectful it is to diss someone who gave you something for free when they don't owe you a thing.

To handbrake devs: You made some really, really good software and are freely sharing it with anyone who wants it.

So thank you.

Trust me dude there getting paid! It's not just a hand out. However the way people word things can be annoying when they are getting it free. I think what annoys people is that even though we don't pay for this if we weren't here they wouldn't get anything in there pockets. I'm very happy with this software though. It does what i need but that's me.

[TedJ]

Trust me dude there getting paid! It's not just a hand out.

No they're not and yes it is, in that order.

I think what annoys people is that even though we don't pay for this if we weren't here they wouldn't get anything in there pockets.

Again, totally wrong. None of the Handbrake developers derive any income from this project, it is strictly a labour of love. While there are some google ads on the main page, these fail to even cover the cost of hosting. If you weren't there they'd still be doing it, because this project interests them personally.

[s55]

Donation Policy: http://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/SupportFAQ#filthylucre

Also, you should note that HandBrake is not a product and not developed by a software company. There is no office, no staff, no money. Everyone here is volunteers.

It's simply a bit of software developed by small band of people who share a common interest.

[eddyg]

Trust me dude there getting paid!

I'd rather brand you with a hot poker than trust you, since you obviously haven't got a clue.

Cheers, Ed.

[kosobai]

I'm quite sure there is nothing more frustrating for devs and mods for the same kind of questions to keep popping up again and again. That said, I'm sure someone can think of a 'cut & paste' response which deals with the poster briefly but in a non-offensive way. I've had private messages from other users who feared getting a flaming for making their enquiry public.

This is a support forum; abuse is uncalled for..

[TedJ]

To be honest, while I'll admit that there are one or two developers who's responses may be described as prickly or even brusque, I've rarely seen anything that would be described as abusive... at least not without provocation on the part of the original poster. As for the 'cut & paste' response, this is the primary reason why we instituted the post approval system for new users - to ensure that they are made fully aware of their obligations under the forum rules... the rules they agreed to abide by as a condition of joining the forum.

Most of the altercations I've seen in my time on this forum stems from a misplaced sense of entitlement among our new members, which is why I often take pains to point out that the developers and moderators are volunteers, myself included. We offer up our free time to develop and offer support for Handbrake because we're passionate about the application.

A far worse outcome than a few offended new users would be for the people who make this software possible to lose heart and find other ways of spending their spare time...

[rhester]

Speaking of entitlement... (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, honest)

I suppose that's one of my biggest issues, honestly. Somewhere along the way people got the idea that the 'net is some sort of democracy, presumably because so many fantastic services are available free of charge (and let it be known, folks, they are NEVER free - someone always pays. A labor of love is expensive on upkeep!).

As such, it would seem that a vocal minority of our users waltz onto our forums like they own the place and expect - nay, *demand* - instant answers to inane questions that have been asked and answered a thousand times before (and are often found right in the FAQ!), completely ignore the signup agreement *and* the large red banner at the top of every forum (what did we miss, a blink tag?), and expect virtually immediate answers to problems that are more than half the time unrelated to HandBrake.

Should they know better? Probably. Should their parents have taught them better? Absolutely. Do we put up with it anyway? Yes, with probably *more* grace and candor than is called for.

People seem to forget (or never realized) that we provide all this stuff _at no charge_ because we *are* indeed passionate about it. We give freely of our time that could be *much better spent doing other things* because of that passion. But most importantly, HandBrake is our "child", and these forums are an extension of our homes.

Would people who barge onto these forums making all sorts of demands and basically acting like rude idiots do the same when visiting a stranger's home? Maybe I am giving the general public too much credit and people *really do* behave this way, but if they ever did so in *MY* home, they would find themselves quickly on the opposite side of my front door. This is no different.

We don't ask much of anyone. Read and be aware of the rules (they are NOT there to make your life more difficult, they are there to make ours less difficult, so we can *actually help you*!), follow them, and understand that every time you want to interact with a developer that you are taking away from their time doing other things (like coding, or eating, or spending time with family, or a million other things that most humans consider 'normal').

HandBrake forums are somewhat unique in that they are not user-supported as much as they are *developer*-supported...and that's rare, even in the OSS world. If you have a problem with Mac OS X or Windows Vista, do you have the ability to just hop on the Internet and interact *directly* with the people at Apple or Microsoft *who actually wrote the code*? That is a precious and rare commodity that is far too easily taken for granted, and it is irritating to an extreme how discourteous people are when they don't even _consider_ that their behavior could be regarded as obnoxiously rude.

I've read several times now from lusers that if it is so frustrating (and yes, it *really* is), why don't we just stop responding? Well, truth be told, that is _exactly_ the condition I found the HandBrake forums in when I restarted and forked the project years ago...many, many people continuing to ask questions on (and troll) a ghost town of a forum where there were no answers and considerable background static. They were nearly dead and all but useless, and the mythical 'user community' that was supposed to spring up and support each other never materialized (because that takes a very special set of conditions that will simply never happen with this project, and that's not a bad thing).

If people would prefer to return to those 'bad old days' (and most of the users in question who suggest this approach weren't *around* then, so they don't know what it was like - I wish we'd kept the archive!), that can be arranged...but I would consider that an absolute end-of-the-line scenario that would invariably lead to an ignoble death of the project as a whole.

I don't know how to put this much more simply: Please read what we have taken the time to write, understand that it was for a reason, and show us some common respect and we will do the same in return. Act like you have some sort of misguided sense of entitlement and a complete inability to read and comprehend basic instructions and you will be treated as the luser you are - and respond to that with hostility and you will further be shown the door.

We don't have a 'product', we aren't a company, we have nobody to satisfy but ourselves. We create HandBrake *FOR US*, because *WE* need the tool to do something useful - and we choose to share it with the general public because, well, why the hell not? It is truly a labor of love, but if people continue to berate us for making the decision to keep HandBrake a *very* open, transparent, and high-quality public project, it doesn't have to stay that way.

For the love of God, people - act like you have some sense and dignity!

Rant over.

Rodney

[kosobai]

My own experience of the Handbrake forums is that there are jewels to be found from digging around the threads. Overall, I've been happy with the support.

However, this forum does have a bit of a reputation... on the Ubuntu forums at least, something along the lines of 'Do not put hands in animal enclosure'.

If a post is inappropriate, all that needs to be said is "Read forum rules". Certainly don't get into a handbag fight with lazy posters; just nip it in the bud! I'm sure fellow users would appreciate this, too, as it enables us to find appropriate info quickly without having to trawl through useless threads.

Anyway, I appreciate your time and effort. Keep it up.

[s55]

When I see this sort of response on other forums, it almost always comes from a small vocal minority that didn't get what they want here. It's a very childish wha! wha! wha! response.

Example: I Just banned someone yesterday for being a right jerk to me, calling me a liar, being rude to others (this after several warnings). He then went and edited the Wikipedia article to say our forums censored and we are a bunch of jerks. (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =318372836) and has bad mouthed us on other forums. (This individual is banned on several other forums for the exact same reason - mouthing off and acting like he owns the place.)

If people follow the rules, They have nothing to worry about.

[artsfish]

.......pompous, arrogant, dismissive.......

I'm glad I found this thread. At least I know that others have had similarly unpleasant experiences. I reported one of the devs' responses to a comment of mine - because I found it extremely unprofessional and rude. That thread is now locked, but what that means, I haven't a clue.

Since I'm new to the forum and hate to judge an entire forum by a few individuals, I did look around and find that there are some moderators/Devs/Admins. who both put in a lot of their own time and are also professional and helpful. Unfortunately I also found some that are repeatedly posting rude and snarky responses. Sure there are MANY horrid and rude comments by posters, but IMHO there is NEVER an excuse for an official of a forum to respond in kind.

A sincere thank you to the Devs, Admins, and Moderators who make the effort to keep it professional and polite. If you find the unprofessionalism of some your online colleagues at HB appalling as well, I would ask that you push for more respectful responses from them.

The HB #1 rule....
http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6702

Posting & Account Rules

1. Keep bad language to a minimum and respect other users (and developers) on this forum.

[Deleted User 11865]

Well, you are right, this is the place to keep this kind of discussion. Anyway, here's the answer I was going to post to the other thread before it got locked:

Rodeo is the only regular user currently stepping up and helping out other people on the forum.

HIs comment was neither helpful or friendly. This type of commentary is at best unprofessional and at worst completely insulting.

There is nothing "professional" about HandBrake. It's an all-volunteer project, no one is getting paid or compensated for their work. You have no right to require any professionalism from any of us.

The HB #1 rule....
http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6702

Posting & Account Rules

1. Keep bad language to a minimum and respect other users (and developers) on this forum.

(emphasis mine)

And yet:

I, too have noted that the topic of multiple file selection and batch encoding has been discussed to death.

[…]

So hey, devs - pretty please with sugar on top could you put it on your "to do " list?

So, you've seen the feature has already been discussed, you've read the developers' stance on it (or at least know they have one) as well as their reasons for not implementing it yet, and if you've read some of the other topics you'll know that it is on their to-do list (just not in the immediate future).

But you ignored all that, and asked for the feature again without addressing any of the developer's concerns, and you wonder why some people react negatively?

Whining aside, I do really appreciate the work of the Handbrake devs.

I also complimented the devs. on their hard work - and as a reward I get obnoxious snark just because someone is tired of hearing the same feature request?

So because you complimented the devs once, you expect them to ignore all the other irritating things you've done and reward you instead?

Some of us aren't thinking only of ourselves.

And yet you are. Just because you may be able to get the right settings for batch encoding, doesn't mean that the majority of HandBrake's millions of users will, and that the developers should bear the burden of support caused by this feature just so that a minority of users like you can benefit from the feature.

A sincere thank you to the Devs, Admins, and Moderators who make the effort to keep it professional and polite. If you find the unprofessionalism of some your online colleagues at HB appalling as well, I would ask that you push for more respectful responses from them.

As far as I can see, the HB devs get along fairly well (including regarding matters of forum etiquette), so I doubt you'll find many to support you. But that's just my opinion.

Work for free? You make a lot of assumptions. I have clicked the "donate through PayPal" button over the years on more open source and freeware/shareware projects than I can count. Not that I should have to defend myself - but perhaps you might think twice before insulting the next person when you don't actually know the facts.

What facts? So you have donated to many projects that aren't related in any way to HandBrake, and that gives you the right to feel entitled to something from the HandBrake developers, or to claim that they don't develop HandBrake for free? That's insulting.

Again, HandBrake is an all-volunteer project. The developers are free to decide what features they implement or not. If you're unhappy about it, you can either live with it and keep using HandBrake as is, or stop using HandBrake.

[artsfish]

You have no right to require any professionalism from any of us.

Well now that proves my point exactly. Professional behavior or dialogue has nothing to do with whether someone is paid or not.

It's rather commonly expected that anyone representing any enterprise or organization and with public contact - should be professional, civil and respectful - whether paid or not. I've supervised enough volunteers while working for DC area nonprofits or US government arts organizations to have some sense of this.

And honestly, a bit of unsolicited advice; if you are NOT professional in your dealings with others, whatever the situation - you will find that people dismiss you as juvenile and will have no respect for anything you say. Just as I did when I stopped reading your last comment after the first paragraph. You've given me absolutely no reason to respect your opinion. Civility goes a long way.

All in all, most of what I've said basically boils down as a request to simply not be rude. It's sad that such a simple and understandable request should provoke such a vitriolic response.

And, wow, do you really think that it's ok to be as snarky as you want to, just because you are unpaid? That's a rather amazing social concept - one that I certainly hope that too many others do not hold to.

[rhester]

I appreciate that you know how to run this project better than we do. We were the ones who made the conscious decision to share what we do with the public, and as such, that happens on our terms. There's certainly no requirement that you like it - and if you don't, there's nothing mandatory about your use of the forums or HandBrake.

In the words of Extreme, if you don't like what you see here...

Rodney

[artsfish]

We were the ones who made the conscious decision to share what we do with the public, and as such, that happens on our terms.

Ok then, let me refresh your memory on your OWN forum rules;

Posting & Account Rules

1. Keep bad language to a minimum and respect other users (and developers) on this forum.

However, if all the HB team is of the same mind as you, perhaps you should adjust the forum rules to read;

Posting & Account Rules (please note; Developers, Administrators and Moderators are exempt.)

1. Keep bad language to a minimum and respect other users (and developers) on this forum.............etc, etc,

Also, just for the record - I haven't told anyone to do anything, and I certainly never told anyone how to run the project. If you don't believe me have a second look. I have, however, suggested that it would be a welcome thing to your users if you would keep your responses respectful and friendly. Wow, I asked for friendly and respectful dialogue. The nerve of me!! Of course, if you really want to frame your responses in a manner that a foul-temperd 12-year-old would be proud of, that is certainly your right.

In the words of Extreme, if you don't like what you see here...

This is just a guess, but I would wager that those "Mean People Suck" bumper stickers aren't very popular with you guys.