NO AUDIO?... Read Here! (Summary in First Post) **UPDATED**

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:44 pm

my experience proves that the encoder has a bug.

If you or other users experience a different behaviour then I certainly find it very interesting. Troubleshooting it is problematic because everyone reports a completely different story.

When the problem occurs, I encode using ffmpeg and it works. I rarely rip the DVD first using MTR or a Windows equivalent. I have found that when using a ripped VIDEO_TS folder to be much slower in comparison to a direct rip/encode.

bhaal · Post by **bhaal** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:44 pm

We've already got at least one difference using the same encoding and ripping method but different hardware. It may well not be hardware related, I'm going to try again with a copy of casino royale tomorrow though (with a different drive), just to be sure.

Plus it just helps to have the data points.

Another thing to mention is that the problem being related to the optical drive would explain the fact that most seem to have success in windows but not in OS X. The hardware Apple uses is homogenous, windows hardware is much more varied.

loyalty_anchored · Post by **loyalty_anchored** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:50 pm

petvas wrote:I am sorry but I dont see how this will help. If the problem was hardware related, then no other encoder or/and application would be able to encode the resulting VIDEO_TS folder.
Using the ffmpeg encoder always works for me. Visual Hub also works always. Only when using the H.264 in Handbrake can cause the problems.

H.264 is not as forgiving as others... this is just something we have to accept, so when encoding with H.264 the problems will become apparent, does not mean they were never there, all it really means is that the problem does not get picked up in the cases where the rip succeeded.

i feel very strongly that the issue is hardware related, and i will be doing some serious testing in regards to this, to the point that i will BUY hardware out of my own pocket and put my own time to test these theories.

so just give me some time and you will get your answers

so people, please tell me this, has anyone had a failed rip (audio drop) using an external pioneer DVD drive?

please include the exact drive you are using in combination with which ripper and which ripping method when posting your results. if you need help in finding out what drive you have, just ask!

just remember, we cannot refuse a theory without proving it wrong. i do not think there is any data that proves that the optical drive has NOTHING to do with the audio drops.

Cavalicious · Post by **Cavalicious** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:02 pm

petvas wrote:may experience proves that the encoder has a bug.

If you or other users experience a different behaviour then I certainly find it very interesting. Troubleshooting it is problematic because everyone reports a completely different story.

When the problem occurs, I encode using ffmpeg and it works. I rarely rip the DVD first using MTR or a Windows equivalent. I have found that when using a ripped VIDEO_TS folder to be much slower in comparison to a direct rip/encode.

1st - I don't believe anyone claimed non-h.264 files had this issues (Done)

2nd - I wouldn't say "completely different" story, more so not "complete" story -hence the suggestion of listing everything.

3rd - If you decide not to rip first using a different "ripper" you are going to be in a heap of trouble. Mainly due to the fact that Handbrake isn't ment to keep up with the latest Copy Protection Schemes. Get into the habit, I suggest.

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:22 pm

Cavalicious wrote:
petvas wrote:may experience proves that the encoder has a bug.

If you or other users experience a different behaviour then I certainly find it very interesting. Troubleshooting it is problematic because everyone reports a completely different story.

When the problem occurs, I encode using ffmpeg and it works. I rarely rip the DVD first using MTR or a Windows equivalent. I have found that when using a ripped VIDEO_TS folder to be much slower in comparison to a direct rip/encode.
1st - I don't believe anyone claimed non-h.264 files had this issues (Done)

2nd - I wouldn't say "completely different" story, more so not "complete" story -hence the suggestion of listing everything.

3rd - If you decide not to rip first using a different "ripper" you are going to be in a heap of trouble. Mainly due to the fact that Handbrake isn't ment to keep up with the latest Copy Protection Schemes. Get into the habit, I suggest.

I dont mind ripping DVDs but I have found out that if I do that encoding in Handbrake is much slower! I dont know why, I will further test it and if necessary post my findings.

dynaflash · Post by **dynaflash** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:25 pm

Cavalicious wrote:Mainly due to the fact that Handbrake isn't ment to keep up with the latest Copy Protection Schemes.

You have no idea how correct you are. HB uses DeCss and that is all. period. there is no code to avert empty cells, intentional junk IFO's, nothing. You will have literally no choice but to use an external ripper as each month passes by. This you can be sure of.

petvas wrote: I have found that when using a ripped VIDEO_TS folder to be much slower in comparison to a direct rip/encode.

If you mean reading from the hard drive vs. reading right from dvd, I find this very hard to believe, personally.

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:28 pm

Well, when Handbrake reads from Hard Drive, the Framerate is between 7 and 10 fps, when ripping directly from DVD I get 25 fps!
I have tested that on my two Macs using the internal Hard Drive and two Lacie 500GB, one connected through Firewire 400 and the other through USB 2.0

I will test with more DVDs...

loyalty_anchored · Post by **loyalty_anchored** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:30 pm

petvas wrote:Well, when Handbrake reads from Hard Drive, the Framerate is between 7 and 10 fps, when ripping directly from DVD I get 25 fps!
I have tested that on my two Macs using the internal Hard Drive and two Lacie 500GB, one connected through Firewire 400 and the other through USB 2.0

I will test with more DVDs...

funny, here are my numbers:

1- 7-10FPS when the audio has dropped.
2- 24-28FPS when the encode has not dropped audio yet.

from HD or from DVD

bhaal · Post by **bhaal** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:35 pm

the same here

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:40 pm

I tried now with Mission Impossible III Region 2 and I got 7 fps...I stopped it now and I am copying the VIDEO_TS to my external Drive and then I am going to retest.
Using the DVD I get 25fps

loyalty_anchored · Post by **loyalty_anchored** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:42 pm

petvas wrote:I tried now with Mission Impossible III Region 2 and I got 7 fps...I stopped it now and I am copying the VIDEO_TS to my external Drive and then I am going to retest.
Using the DVD I get 25fps

let the encodes finish, you will probably notice that the encode going at 7FPS has dropped audio in it, and the one going at 25FPS does not.

now, the frame rate does not drop until the dropped audio accurs, so for example, if the dropped audio occurs at about 80% into the movie, it will slow down the encode at around 80%.

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:48 pm

I am trying it now. I will encode only the first two chapters...I dont want to wait 5 hours for it to finish!

The issue occurs almost immediately, so the first two chapters should suffice...

Core · Post by **Core** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:50 pm

Cavalicious wrote:
petvas wrote:may experience proves that the encoder has a bug.

If you or other users experience a different behaviour then I certainly find it very interesting. Troubleshooting it is problematic because everyone reports a completely different story.

When the problem occurs, I encode using ffmpeg and it works. I rarely rip the DVD first using MTR or a Windows equivalent. I have found that when using a ripped VIDEO_TS folder to be much slower in comparison to a direct rip/encode.
1st - I don't believe anyone claimed non-h.264 files had this issues (Done)

2nd - I wouldn't say "completely different" story, more so not "complete" story -hence the suggestion of listing everything.

3rd - If you decide not to rip first using a different "ripper" you are going to be in a heap of trouble. Mainly due to the fact that Handbrake isn't ment to keep up with the latest Copy Protection Schemes. Get into the habit, I suggest.

I have had these issues and am not using h.264.

Corey

loyalty_anchored · Post by **loyalty_anchored** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:56 pm

petvas wrote:I am trying it now. I will encode only the first two chapters...I dont want to wait 5 hours for it to finish!

The issue occurs almost immediately, so the first two chapters should suffice...

"patience is a virtue"

When using process of elimination and the scientific method you have to be very consistent in your testing, you have to change ONE variable at a time... otherwise your testing is useless.

just my opinion and my way of testing. the final decision is yours.

loyalty_anchored · Post by **loyalty_anchored** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:57 pm

Core wrote:
I have had these issues and am not using h.264.

Corey

just to clarify... you have experienced dropped audio with a codec other then H.264?

if so please give us some more details.

thanks.

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:02 pm

From DVD it works ok, the Hard Disk rip doesnt. No audio...

Core · Post by **Core** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:04 pm

loyalty_anchored wrote:
Core wrote:
I have had these issues and am not using h.264.

Corey
just to clarify... you have experienced dropped audio with a codec other then H.264?

if so please give us some more details.

thanks.

This is from an earlier post of mine in this thread:

I have ran this through several times with a varying selection of settings, all get the same result of droping the audio at 49 minues.

All: Framerate of: Same as source.
All: Encoder: FFmpeg.
Varying: Avg bitrate. Tried 1000 through 1500 on several runs.
All: Double pass encoding.
All: Codec: Mpeg-4 / AAC.
Varying: Audio: 44100 & 48000.
Varying: Bitrate: Tried 128 through 320 on several runs.
All: Picture size of 640 by X

If I take the same source file that was created with the latest MTR 3.0 and burn it to a DVD, it plays fine through a DVD player without losing the audio, so I assume that the original rip from MTR is not flawed, but I don't really understand the inside of how this all works and could be wrong here. I have tried the same file using 'DVD to iPod' converter and had different results, the audio, at the same 49 minutes, begins to trail the video by a couple of seconds. If I take the settings on with that converter and turn it down to the most basic of iPod settings, everything works fine. I am now trying it with Visual Hub to see if that works. I will post my results in about two hours...

Corey

loyalty_anchored · Post by **loyalty_anchored** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:06 pm

this is helping alot, thank you for reposting, sorry i didnt catch that!

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:45 pm

Ok, now I downloaded the latest svn build and I am encoding Mission Impossible III using the Hard Drive as source. Frame Rate is 6 - 9 fps. I will let it finish. I will post back the results in about 6 hours...

Core · Post by **Core** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:52 pm

See my post a couple up from here. These, multiple, attempts with the various settings were done from both the optical drive and the hard drive as the source drives. They were also done using the source hard drive as the target and using a second drive as the source target. Sometimes I used an internal hard drive for the target drive and sometimes an external firewire drive. Again, all with the same results.

I post this so that we know that it is not a drive issue here is all.

Corey

bhaal · Post by **bhaal** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:55 pm

petvas wrote:From DVD it works ok, the Hard Disk rip doesnt. No audio...

This shows that the way in which MTR uses the drive to rip the data that MF doesn't like and produces problems but the way in which MF uses the drive to rip the data is a way it likes.

It shows that the problem is not a fundamental flaw in MF's encoder

The fact that it still happens when I use fairmount and DTOX to rip shows that it is not an MTR issue or at least not exclusively so.

One conclusion is that certain drives do not handle the newest ripping methods in a way that produces MF compatible data. However that can be overcome by just using a different drive, the fact that casino royale works on some but not others suggests this.

I think the problem is down to the DRM put on DVDs varying to such an extent that some drives can't read the data well, even when the newest ripping methods are used. An analogy would be the way some CD drives don't read DRMd CDs very well but others do.

Core did you try with a second optical drive?

petvas a) how did you download the latest svn and b) don't waste six hours that rip will have no audio, guaranteed.

Core · Post by **Core** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:02 pm

bhaal wrote:
petvas wrote:From DVD it works ok, the Hard Disk rip doesnt. No audio...

Core did you try with a second optical drive?

I've used the internal optical drives in my iMac and two different G5 towers all with the same results. I believe they are all Pioneer units, I don't know if the iMac drive is different than the G5's. The G5 drive is a Pioneer model PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-117D. The iMac is at home and I'm not sure what the drive is that's internal to it.

Corey

petvas · Post by **petvas** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:10 pm

bhaal wrote:
petvas wrote:From DVD it works ok, the Hard Disk rip doesnt. No audio...
petvas a) how did you download the latest svn and b) don't waste six hours that rip will have no audio, guaranteed.

If you want to download the svn builds, follow the instructions at http://handbrake.m0k.org/trac/wiki/CompileGuide

I think I should let it finish so that we could have an accurate test...I will sleep anyway!

Core · Post by **Core** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:22 am

Core wrote:
loyalty_anchored wrote:
Core wrote:
I have had these issues and am not using h.264.

Corey
just to clarify... you have experienced dropped audio with a codec other then H.264?

if so please give us some more details.

thanks.
This is from an earlier post of mine in this thread:

I have ran this through several times with a varying selection of settings, all get the same result of droping the audio at 49 minues.

All: Framerate of: Same as source.
All: Encoder: FFmpeg.
Varying: Avg bitrate. Tried 1000 through 1500 on several runs.
All: Double pass encoding.
All: Codec: Mpeg-4 / AAC.
Varying: Audio: 44100 & 48000.
Varying: Bitrate: Tried 128 through 320 on several runs.
All: Picture size of 640 by X

If I take the same source file that was created with the latest MTR 3.0 and burn it to a DVD, it plays fine through a DVD player without losing the audio, so I assume that the original rip from MTR is not flawed, but I don't really understand the inside of how this all works and could be wrong here. I have tried the same file using 'DVD to iPod' converter and had different results, the audio, at the same 49 minutes, begins to trail the video by a couple of seconds. If I take the settings on with that converter and turn it down to the most basic of iPod settings, everything works fine. I am now trying it with Visual Hub to see if that works. I will post my results in about two hours...

Corey

OK, FYI, the same source file ran through Visual Hub yielded a proper running movie, no audio drops.

Corey

Cavalicious · Post by **Cavalicious** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:58 am

Ran through another test (with previous settings).

Big Momma's House 2 (don't ask!)

Ripped with MTR 3R14d then encoded with svnHB = Missing Audio

Ripped and Encoded with svnHB = Perfect .mp4

Conclusion: Obivious to me... The issue is not svnHB.

BUT...I did rip Casino Royale with MTR but encoded it with 0.8.0MF (less "features", older software) and it works great. One other deal So far, all .mp4 files I encoded with svnHB, I can't add "artwork" to. Is this another issue (known hopefully)?

Thanks,
~Cav

HandBrake

NO AUDIO?... Read Here! (Summary in First Post) UPDATED