"tearing" problems

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saltyzoo
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

"tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

I've done a search and I'm not seeing any issues with tearing. Maybe I'm using the wrong term, but it seems to exactly describe what is happening. If it's the wrong term let me know and I'll re-search.

The other possible reason why I'm not seeing any issues is that it may not be HandBrake that's causing the problem. I recently switched to using XBMC as my player and it may be XMBC that is causing the issue.

Anyway, it's not excessive, but I never noticed it until 0.9.3 came out (unfortunately that is also about the time I switched to using XBMC).

Has anybody else noticed this issue or am I barking up the wrong tree here?
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JohnAStebbins
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Re: "tearing" problems

Post by JohnAStebbins »

As you guessed, tearing us usually a problem with the player or your video drivers. Older nvidia and ati linux drivers were notorious for this.
saltyzoo
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

Yeah, the more I think about it the more that seems likely.

But there might be ways of reducing the problems as far as encoding options go. Any thoughts or suggestions there?
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JohnAStebbins
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Re: "tearing" problems

Post by JohnAStebbins »

There really isn't. Tearing occurs because the video is rendered to the screen while the screen is being refreshed. You see half of the previous picture and half of the new picture. The way you prevent this it to only render a frame during the virtical refresh interval. It's completely a function of how the player and driver interact.
saltyzoo
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

Hmm. I would have thought that if nothing else a lower bitrate would help.
cvk_b
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Deblock Problems with XMBC

Post by cvk_b »

xmbc sucks on deblock. try adding...

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:nf=1
to your x264 string to disable it. Or, instead, weaken the setting...

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:filter=-2,-2
That might help, not sure. But it will make the file easier for xbmc to decode.
saltyzoo
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

I'll give it a shot. I hate blocking though so I have a feeling I'll prefer the tearing.....
cvk_b
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Re: "tearing" problems

Post by cvk_b »

saltyzoo wrote:I'll give it a shot. I hate blocking though so I have a feeling I'll prefer the tearing.....
What are your exact settings? When using x264 with a subme of 6 or greater and a decent bitrate it's pretty rare to see blocks
saltyzoo
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

Only on dark / smoke type scenes do I see it. It's just a pet peeve of mine.

--x264opts ref=3:mixed-refs=1:bframes=3:bime=1:weightb=1:b-rdo=1:direct=auto:me=umh:subq=6:analyse=all:8x8dct=1:trellis=1:no-fast-pskip=1:filter=-2,-2:b-adapt=2

I'm also struggling with a problem where something I changed recently slowed my encodes down by more than half and I can't figure out what I did. At someone else's recommendation I just bumped down ref and bframes to 3 from 6 and added the b-adapt=2. Didn't help the speed any. I haven't viewed it yet to see what the quality is like.
saltyzoo
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

Forget about the slowness. I found the setting that's doing that. analyse=all is causing a double in encode time.
cvk_b
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Re: "tearing" problems

Post by cvk_b »

I encode complex action/grain material all the time without deblock that has no dark area problems. For example the T2 sample in my signature.
saltyzoo wrote:--x264opts ref=3:mixed-refs=1:bframes=3:bime=1:weightb=1:b-rdo=1:direct=auto:me=umh:subq=6:analyse=all:8x8dct=1:trellis=1:no-fast-pskip=1:filter=-2,-2:b-adapt=2

You need to change some of the b-frame options you are using. They are different now...
x264 commit inside HB 0.9.3 wrote:Rework subme system, add RD refinement in B-frames. The new system is as follows: subme6 is RD in I/P frames, subme7 is RD in all frames, subme8 is RD refinement in I/P frames, and subme9 is RD refinement in all frames.
subme6 == old subme6, subme7 == old subme6+brdo, subme8 == old subme7+brdo, subme9 == no equivalent
--b-rdo has, accordingly, been removed. --bime has also been removed, and instead enabled automatically at subme >= 5.
RD refinement in B-frames (subme9) includes both qpel-RD and an RD version of bime.
Looking at what you are trying to do from your options try this:
60% Quality

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ref=2:mixed-refs=1:bframes=3:direct=auto:me=umh:subq=8:analyse=all:8x8dct=1:trellis=1:no-fast-pskip=1:filter=-2,-2:b-adapt=2
Using Quality percentage is the way to go. Find the quality you want ( 54%-63% are sane values right now). Use all the other options to get the speed and file size you want ( psy-rd is the one exception to that rule ).

60% Quality

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ref=1:bframes=2:direct=auto:subq=8:analyse=all:8x8dct=1:trellis=1:no-fast-pskip=1:filter=-2,-2
Should look the same and encode faster at the expense of file size/bitrate.
saltyzoo
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

Thanks for the hints. I'm playing with them tonight. Basically I want highest quality and don't really care about the rest. I don't even mind a 10 hour encode if that's what it takes.
saltyzoo
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

I'm not really happy with those settings even at 64% quality. I have to bump to 70 or more to prevent distant faces from being excessively muddied.
cvk_b
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Re: "tearing" problems

Post by cvk_b »

saltyzoo wrote:I'm not really happy with those settings even at 64% quality. I have to bump to 70 or more to prevent distant faces from being excessively muddied.
What about when NOT using xbmc? Also, did the tearing go away? As far as the %, you just might have higher standard than me (or a really big TV you are watching closely). HD or SD source? I was just trying to work with the info I had :)
saltyzoo
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Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: "tearing" problems

Post by saltyzoo »

cvk_b wrote:
saltyzoo wrote:I'm not really happy with those settings even at 64% quality. I have to bump to 70 or more to prevent distant faces from being excessively muddied.
What about when NOT using xbmc? Also, did the tearing go away? As far as the %, you just might have higher standard than me (or a really big TV you are watching closely). HD or SD source? I was just trying to work with the info I had :)
Yes, I did confirm it was XBMC.

And with the new settings you guys have given me I've got the tearing down to a minimum on XBMC too. The only time it's a problem now is rapid flashes from dark to light (like lightening or a flickering light).
cvk_b
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XBMC Issues

Post by cvk_b »

saltyzoo wrote:Yes, I did confirm it was XBMC.

And with the new settings you guys have given me I've got the tearing down to a minimum on XBMC too. The only time it's a problem now is rapid flashes from dark to light (like lightening or a flickering light).
Glad I was able to help a bit, at least. Share your settings, once you finalize them. :)
Other users may find them helpful.
golias
Enlightened
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:29 pm

Re: XBMC Issues

Post by golias »

cvk_b wrote:
saltyzoo wrote:Yes, I did confirm it was XBMC.

And with the new settings you guys have given me I've got the tearing down to a minimum on XBMC too. The only time it's a problem now is rapid flashes from dark to light (like lightening or a flickering light).
Glad I was able to help a bit, at least. Share your settings, once you finalize them. :)
Other users may find them helpful.
Yes, I will be watching this thread with great interest as to what your final settings are.

I watch on a 119" screen connected to a Mac mini (Core 2 Duo 2.0 GHz).

I *would* play everything back with Quicktime, Perian & FrontRow... but now that AC-3 surround sound is so messed up when it comes to Quicktime playing most files, I've been rolling with Plex and mostly like it, but I'm having intermittent tearing problems on just about every file I rip. :(

Also, I agree that 60% or even 62% constant quality settings don't cut the mustard when you're watching on a large projection system. Bumping up to 70% *is* a difference that can be seen, and with file storage getting so cheap these days, there's no reason not to crank it up like that.

EDIT: I agree that perhaps "tearing" isn't the correct term here. It's sort of like moving objects leaving behind a trail of blocky blurs, only sometimes it's not actually an on-screen object in motion. Just the "wiggle factor" of film grain or diffuse lighting seems to be enough to trigger it sometimes. It's very intermittent and hard to predict, but I see it especially pronounced when subtitles or credits appear on the screen.
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