Page 1 of 1

New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:21 pm
by Deleted User 28196
Please can I request updated presets for the new Apple TV and iPad?

Thanks

Ross

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:24 pm
by mduell
They'll be in the nightlies shortly after the devs can get their hands on some for testing.

In the meantime the best guess is to just change the width/height to full HD.

Might need a maxrate limit on the tv since the cripped A5 only supports level 4.0.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:03 pm
by Ripping Jack
Don't suppose this would be enough to prompt a new "official" release of HandBrake, or will they stick with their annual schedule?

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:23 pm
by s55
There is nothing stopping you choosing AppleTV preset, then saving it back again with a Source Max of 1080p. In theory, that may work fine.

You can do the same with the iPad preset, but it's probably not worth it. With limited space, 720P is going to be jut fine for the majority imo.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:42 pm
by Deleted User 28196
s55 wrote:There is nothing stopping you choosing AppleTV preset, then saving it back again with a Source Max of 1080p. In theory, that may work fine.

You can do the same with the iPad preset, but it's probably not worth it. With limited space, 720P is going to be jut fine for the majority imo.
With the huge increase in resolution I want to avoid anything less than 1080p if possible.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:12 pm
by GregiBoy
ross2000 wrote:With the huge increase in resolution I want to avoid anything less than 1080p if possible.
It really depends on your source. There is nothing to be gained from upscaling content of a lower resolution and, in fact, is not allowed in the GUI.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:58 pm
by Tree Dude
mduell wrote:Might need a maxrate limit on the tv since the cripped A5 only supports level 4.0.
Eeeep. I was set on a WD TV Live before this announcement. Is it just a bitrate change, or are there advanced options that are not supported in 4.0? I use the high profile with ref=4 and bframes=6 and it would suck if they wouldn't play. My highest average bitrate is about 7mb for Transformers, not sure what it peaks at though (I have it capped at 40mb, just so it never exceeds the source bitrate).

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:47 pm
by mduell
Tree Dude wrote:
mduell wrote:Might need a maxrate limit on the tv since the cripped A5 only supports level 4.0.
Eeeep. I was set on a WD TV Live before this announcement. Is it just a bitrate change, or are there advanced options that are not supported in 4.0? I use the high profile with ref=4 and bframes=6 and it would suck if they wouldn't play. My highest average bitrate is about 7mb for Transformers, not sure what it peaks at though (I have it capped at 40mb, just so it never exceeds the source bitrate).
The only difference between level 4.1 and 4.0 is the bitrate allowed; for high profile it's 62.5Mbps vs 25Mbps. It may stutter if the peak bitrate exceeds 25Mbps for too long (I don't know how big the buffer is, perhaps a second).

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:28 pm
by Tree Dude
Thanks mduell. Searching online I found various reports of what the max bitrate of L4.0 is (20-30mb was the range) depending on color space and some other factor I didn't understand.

I doubt my encodes peak above 25mb (know of anything I can use to find peak bitrate?), but I will change my advanced string so they can't in the future.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:47 pm
by Rodeo
Virduk wrote:
mduell wrote: Might need a maxrate limit on the tv since the cripped A5 only supports level 4.0.
I must say I'm annoyed that the atv can only handle level 4.0 whilst the ipad can handle 4.1. Adds an additional wrinkle in wanting the best file that will play on all devices.

What does 4.0 actually add over 3.1 aside from higher bitrates? anything?
Level 3.1 only supports 720p resolution, not 1080p.
Virduk wrote:It also makes me wonder what bluray uses.
For H.264, level 4.1 for all primary video streams, regardless of resolution (even SD).

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:48 am
by phoenixdown
I'm always amazed at the knowledge you folks have about this stuff. Cheers!

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:06 pm
by tlindgren
Rodeo wrote:
Virduk wrote:It also makes me wonder what bluray uses.
For H.264, level 4.1 for all primary video streams, regardless of resolution (even SD).
That's one of the common mistakes people do, Blu-ray does not support level 4.1 despite often tagging their bitstream as such. One result of this is that there's a considerable amount of Blu-ray derived hardware that support 4.0+Blu-ray but not actual level 4.1 media, sometimes it accepts them but shows artifacts, stops displaying or even crashes if you use all of 4.1...

A compliant Blu-ray decoder is required to handle:
  • Level 4.0, except requiring constant framerate, specific resolution/framerates/pixel aspect ratios, "Open GOP" and no more than 1 second between key-frames!
  • "Blu-ray", tagged as level 4.1 but only accepted if a host of other requirements are fulfilled, specifically:
    • All the restrictions mentioned for 4.0 encoding still applies.
    • Must be "sliced" into at least 4 parts to allow slice-based multi-threading.
    • Maximum bit-rate is 40 Mbps (vbv-maxrate=40000) with "30000" vbv-bufsize.
      Level 4.1/High requires the decoder to handle 62.5 Mbps! (maxrate/bufsize 62500/50000). For comparison, Level4.0/High is 25 Mbps (25000/20000) so it IS higher than 4.0.
The Open GOP requirement probably isn't that bad but the "no more than 1 second between key-frames" hurt compression a LOT and the slicing has the potential to do this too! Slice based multi-threading was originally specified to allow easier decoding on the Cell-processor in PS3, but it was a flop and AFAIK not even the PS-3 actually use this any longer!

Most decoders ignore all these restrictions except the bitrate one but it's outside specifications and sooner or later you'll runs into something that rejects media due to this.

I can't find the original announcement for x264/Blu-ray encoding, but this looks fairly reasonable: http://www.x264bluray.com/home/1080i-p

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:19 pm
by jonahlee
Ha anyone figured out what would be the best preset, as I am guessing that just changing size is actually going to lower quality, you are going to have to raise the size as well.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:14 pm
by Rodeo
tlindgren wrote:
Rodeo wrote:
Virduk wrote:It also makes me wonder what bluray uses.
For H.264, level 4.1 for all primary video streams, regardless of resolution (even SD).
That's one of the common mistakes people do, Blu-ray does not support level 4.1 despite often tagging their bitstream as such. One result of this is that there's a considerable amount of Blu-ray derived hardware that support 4.0+Blu-ray but not actual level 4.1 media, sometimes it accepts them but shows artifacts, stops displaying or even crashes if you use all of 4.1...

A compliant Blu-ray decoder is required to handle:
  • Level 4.0, except requiring constant framerate, specific resolution/framerates/pixel aspect ratios, "Open GOP" and no more than 1 second between key-frames!
  • "Blu-ray", tagged as level 4.1 but only accepted if a host of other requirements are fulfilled, specifically:
    • All the restrictions mentioned for 4.0 encoding still applies.
    • Must be "sliced" into at least 4 parts to allow slice-based multi-threading.
    • Maximum bit-rate is 40 Mbps (vbv-maxrate=40000) with "30000" vbv-bufsize.
      Level 4.1/High requires the decoder to handle 62.5 Mbps! (maxrate/bufsize 62500/50000). For comparison, Level4.0/High is 25 Mbps (25000/20000) so it IS higher than 4.0.
As you pointed out, it doesn't make use of all "features" allowed by level 4.1. But it does "use level 4.1" in that it exceeds some of the constraints specified by level 4.0. So a decoder which only supports level 4.0 may struggle and/or fail to play Blu-ray H.264 streams (whereas one that does support level 4.1 is more likely to play it just fine, as long as it also supports Open GOP).
tlindgren wrote:The Open GOP requirement probably isn't that bad

If implemented correctly in the encoder, this should actually improve compression efficiency. Also, the Blu-ray spec. places some specific restrictions on Open GOP (i.e. it's more restrictive that what the H.264 spec allows). You'd need to ask an x264 developer for more detail though.

but the "no more than 1 second between key-frames" hurt compression a LOT and the slicing has the potential to do this too! Slice based multi-threading was originally specified to allow easier decoding on the Cell-processor in PS3, but it was a flop and AFAIK not even the PS-3 actually use this any longer!
Testing done about a year ago or so showed that the PS3 will struggle with a 40 Mbps maxrate unless you use slices.

BTW, you forgot to mention some additional restrictions on how B-frames can/should be used as references, as well as the fact that Blu-ray treats all I-frames as IDR-frames. Plus miscellaneous bitstream requirements which I'm forgetting.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:19 pm
by Rodeo
jonahlee wrote:Ha anyone figured out what would be the best preset, as I am guessing that just changing size is actually going to lower quality, you are going to have to raise the size as well.
The AppleTV 2 preset already uses CRF (Constant Quality) encoding, so it should be as simple as increasing the resolution.

I'd suggest 2 additional modifications though:

1) check "Web Optimized"

2) add this to the advanced x264 options:

Code: Select all

vbv-bufsize=31250:vbv-maxrate=25000
which should be helpful since there's no local storage on these devices.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:54 am
by tc60045
curious: anyone know how ATV2 will handle 1080p as encoded per Rodeo's suggestions? We had an ATV 1, and 2 ATV2s, but will replace the 1 with a 3, moving the 3 into our media room. Would like the convenience of one-encode, but <sigh> life is not always that easy :)

Thanks

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:53 am
by icfantv
i think we're all excited, well...i am anyway, about the ATV3 - it's been far too long in the making, IMHO.

bottom line though, as partially mentioned above, people will need to get their hands on the actual device first, encode some movies with various settings, and see how they turn out.

remember when we used to have to rewind our movies when done or we'd have to pay a fee? c'est merrie.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:00 am
by i_am_rufus
tc60045 wrote:curious: anyone know how ATV2 will handle 1080p as encoded per Rodeo's suggestions? We had an ATV 1, and 2 ATV2s, but will replace the 1 with a 3, moving the 3 into our media room. Would like the convenience of one-encode, but <sigh> life is not always that easy :)

Thanks
I have taken Inception from a Blu-Ray source, converted with the AppleTV2 preset, but with the resolution bumped up to 1080p, I have also cranked up the bit-rate to 10k just to make things interesting, finally I applied the advanced settings changes that were recommended. The file spat out is about 9Gb in size.

The file correctly reports itself as being 4.0 high profile. I have set the metadata on the file making sure that the 1080p flag now used by iTunes is set correctly.

Results?

The file is now hidden when trying to access it from an iTunes library via the iPhone 4 and iPad2.

When played back on an AppleTV2 running the latest O/S update with the new screen layout it plays back PERFECTLY, albeit at 720p because of the AppleTV2's limitations, but certainly no stuttering at all.

However.......

When played back on an AppleTV2 running the older O/S prior to the latest update, it stutters and freezes constantly.

So, the question is, what has Apple done to the firmware to be able to playback big movie files now, but couldn't before?

Finally, the AppleTV2 is listed in it's specs as only supporting Main Profile Lever 3.1, hence why I would get stuttering of course, but why is it fine after the update? Has Apple upgraded it's capabilities to Main or High Profile Level 4.0 just like the AppleTV3?

Very curious......

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:35 pm
by Rodeo
i_am_rufus wrote:When played back on an AppleTV2 running the latest O/S update with the new screen layout it plays back PERFECTLY, albeit at 720p because of the AppleTV2's limitations, but certainly no stuttering at all.

However.......

When played back on an AppleTV2 running the older O/S prior to the latest update, it stutters and freezes constantly.

So, the question is, what has Apple done to the firmware to be able to playback big movie files now, but couldn't before?
Bug fixes.
i_am_rufus wrote:Finally, the AppleTV2 is listed in it's specs as only supporting Main Profile Lever 3.1, hence why I would get stuttering of course, but why is it fine after the update? Has Apple upgraded it's capabilities to Main or High Profile Level 4.0 just like the AppleTV3?
1080p or High Profile aren't not officially supported by Apple on the AppleTV 2. That doesn't mean the AppleTV 2 is incapable of playing it. Same applies to e.g. iPhone 3G S (supports Baseline @ 3.0 officially, actually plays High @ 3.0 just fine - or more if you don't use iTunes for syncing).

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:48 am
by mrtn
FYI, if you didn't know it you don't need to re-encode 720p and 1080p MKVs on "the new iPad".
Just use the OS X application Subler http://code.google.com/p/subler/ and change the container to m4v. Plays perfectly in the video app.
It looks amazing!

Too bad it doesn't work in the old VLC app.
Can you guys recommend an app like VLC where you don't have to keep the files on your computer?


I remembered this old trick. Sync the movie to your iPad, then select the movie in iTunes, right-click and choose show in finder.
Delete the file in finder but keep it in iTunes. This will trick iTunes to keep the file on the iPad although it's not in iTunes.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:22 am
by nightstrm
mrtn wrote:FYI, if you didn't know it you don't need to re-encode 720p and 1080p MKVs on "the new iPad".
Just use the OS X application Subler http://code.google.com/p/subler/ and change the container to m4v. Plays perfectly in the video app.
It looks amazing!

Too bad it doesn't work in the old VLC app.
Can you guys recommend an app like VLC where you don't have to keep the files on your computer?
That's not always true. For example, if the video is VC-1 instead of h.264.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm
by mrtn
nightstrm wrote: That's not always true. For example, if the video is VC-1 instead of h.264.
Oh, thanks. I guess I never have had a VC-1 file.
If you use Subler and the file is over around 4 gig don't forget to check 64-bit chunks.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:09 am
by TedJ
You also have the possibility that whoever encoded the "completely legitimate" MKV may have turned all the encoder settings to 11, generating an encode that will struggle to play in anything except VLC.

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:13 am
by DarkVamp
Still no new Preset in the nightly builds?

Re: New iPad and Apple TV presets

Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:43 am
by nightstrm
DarkVamp wrote:Still no new Preset in the nightly builds?
You must have missed this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23648

No need for two threads on the same topic, so I'm locking this one.