[Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

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mmick
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[Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by mmick » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:03 pm

Hi guys,

I´ve seen that the 32-bit version was left out, but there are still a lot of people with a 32-bit Windows version that will be ... left out on the cold!

I´ve 3 PCs, 2 of them with Windows 7 32-bit (original) and Windows 8.1 32-bit (original) with lots of apps installed, and I can´t just reinstall 64-bit... One of them is a tablet (Atom Z3740) which is 64-bit capable BUT installed from zero is a 32-bit Windows. Also these chips have Quicksync, which is VERY fast and handbrake capable.

I am not saying to compile 32-bit everytime, but at least now and then, or else all 32-bit Windows people will be very disappointed... :cry:

I can live (never happened...) with some crashes due to memory leak/issues, but I cannot live without Handbrake... :cry:

Please make (at least now and then) a 32-bit version :shock:

HandyMan
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by HandyMan » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:29 pm


musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:35 pm

If you or someone you know wants to do an occasional but unofficial 32 bit compile, I'm sure there would be some interest.

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s55
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by s55 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:16 pm

We'll see how things go after the 0.10 release. If there is sufficient interest, I'll consider putting up a deprecated version page for it with a big warning.

I expect though that the vast majority of our 32bit downloads are people holding onto XP. Not that it matters since XP support is actually outright broken now.

musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:41 pm

. . . holding on to XP, or stuck with Vista!

GregiBoy
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by GregiBoy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:39 am

Or stuck with Win 7 32 Bit that machine was delivered with...

Smithcraft
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by Smithcraft » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:42 am

When I built the new system, I found that if you have a good MS Windows Authorization string of 25 characters, you can install the 64 bit version with the same 32 bit MS key. Or same key for 32 bit and 64 bit version of the same Windows version (Home for Home/Pro for Pro/Ultimate for Ultimate).

Also, MS has disc images available for all the versions of Windows 7(may require some spelunking to find). All you need is the key.

SC

mmick
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by mmick » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:15 pm

I have the original Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 32-bit that came with the machine, and tons of apps/customizations. I (and lots of people) cannot afford/risk an upgrade to 64-bit in this situation because one app is exclusively 64-bit (despite handbrake so good is). Basically you are suggesting a complete windows/app reinstall due to handbrake...

I am not asking that every nightbuild comes as 32-bit, but at least after some major changes (one time a month for example).

musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:47 pm

That's not the case. Most video editors have alread moved exclusively to 64 bit because of the huge memory advantage.
Though I lament the loss right along with you, it is not a conspiracy.

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Rodeo
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by Rodeo » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:07 pm

I blame Microsoft for not allowing 64-bit applications to run with a 32-bit kernel. Mac users have been able to run 64-bit applications since OS X 10.4 Tiger in 2005… :P

mmick
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by mmick » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:05 pm

musicvid: handbrake is a video converter, uses no filters per se, has a very simple UI and it does not have the RAM requirements as a proper video editor. That said, 2 GB of RAM (well inside the 32-bit limit, which is 4 GB) should be more than enough, and personally I never needed more than 1.2 GB of RAM for my blu ray conversions...

I used to do some (VERY basic) video editing on an AMD E-450 + 4 GB RAM + Windows 7 32-bit with full hd sources (the AMD E450 has hardware decode for h264) and besides taking forever to encode, it never ran out of memory or had issues.

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JohnAStebbins
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by JohnAStebbins » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:07 pm

mmick wrote:musicvid: handbrake is a video converter, uses no filters per se...
HandBrake does have filters and each filter in the pipeline requires some number of frames. In order to keep the pipeline moving without delays, there is a fifo that buffers the output of the previous stage and feeds the next stage. Each stage in the pipeline can have between 16 and 32 buffers waiting in the fifo. This adds up when your pipeline looks like:

Code: Select all

reader->decoder->sync->vfr filter->denoise filter->deinterlace filter->scale filter->encoder->muxer
Also, libx264 can buffer many more frames than HandBrake's internal pipeline does for pre-analysis which is done in it's lookahead thread. This is where most people get into trouble with memory. The slower x264 presets add more lookahead buffers.
...has a very simple UI and it does not have the RAM requirements as a proper video editor.
True, HandBrake probably doesn't have the memory needs of a quality video editor, but the UI has nothing to do with it. Video editors can consume lots of memory because they cache lots of decoded frames, which HandBrake will also do when certain settings are used. HandBrake definitely has the potential to consume a lot of memory, but can also be tuned to use less through proper choice of settings.
That said, 2 GB of RAM (well inside the 32-bit limit, which is 4 GB) should be more than enough, and personally I never needed more than 1.2 GB of RAM for my blu ray conversions...
You don't get 4GB of ram on 32bit windows. You get just a shade over 3GB due to windows brain damage.

It is "enough" unless you want to do HD encodes with x264 slower preset which has a very large lookahead buffer. Then you are likely to run into trouble. So long as you are satisfied with medium or faster presets, you may be "ok".
I used to do some (VERY basic) video editing on an AMD E-450 + 4 GB RAM + Windows 7 32-bit with full hd sources (the AMD E450 has hardware decode for h264) and besides taking forever to encode, it never ran out of memory or had issues.
Yes, it is possible (as I said above). But you can get better performance and/or better quality if you use more memory.

So, we could cripple the 32bit version and disable all the features that would push it beyond 3GB memory usage (so that it doesn't crash when an unwary user pushes the limits). Or we could just quit supporting 32bit. Since it is more work to publish a crippled encoder, we choose to quite supporting 32bit.

musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:44 am

Decoding high-bitrate long-GOP interframe video alone uses a lot of memory, as hundreds of unpacked frames both upstream and downstream must be accessible to process the current one. that's before any filters are applied. Buffers fill up really fast.
True, HandBrake probably doesn't have the memory needs of a quality video editor, but the UI has nothing to do with it.
In a nle, the biggest memory glut is the undo and ram preview buffers.

With 4k, h265, etc., it's only going to get worse.

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s55
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by s55 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:24 am

John. Windows is more crippled than you believe. The max process memory is actually 2GB but due to overheads HB dies around 1.3GB. So for HD, even on medium settings you can crash. Particularly if you have a filter enabled.

Smithcraft
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by Smithcraft » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:48 am

Rodeo wrote:I blame Microsoft for not allowing 64-bit applications to run with a 32-bit kernel. Mac users have been able to run 64-bit applications since OS X 10.4 Tiger in 2005… :P
Why can't MS steal this feature from OS X instead of all the walled garden crap? :wink:

SC

musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:47 am

I never got more than 2GB running on XP.
And I lost a lot of work trying.

mmick
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by mmick » Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:48 pm

JohnAStebbins:

of course it is a developer option, I am asking based on my experience with the 32 bit version on low end machines, with limited RAM. As I said, with my bluray backups I never had issues like those, both on SW oder HW (Quicksync).

I would not continue the discussion, I am just saying that the complete inexistence from a 32 bit version is disconfortable, specially when on IFA Berlin so many tablet Win 8.1 32-bit where presented but with a Quicksync capable cpu and enough RAM to do some coding (I tested on an Acer W4 and it worked). Despite a 64-bit cpu, they come with a 32 bit windows, as my father´s laptop, with 4 GB RAM where I did many backups without issues too.

My opinion is just that one 32 bit version each month or whenever the developers find the changes are big, would not be too time consuming, and would make people happy.

musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:39 pm

Mmick, you seem like just the person to compile and maintain an unofficial 32 bit version, in the spirit of any good volunteer project.

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s55
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by s55 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:49 pm

Since we are pretty close to release, I'll push out a 32bit build of the Final just to cleanly close this chapter off. (Probably on a "Other downloads" page or something to that extent where appropriate warnings can be added)

I've made a few changes to the update checker tonight.
So from Beta 4, If you run a 32bit version,
- The update checker will now use the 64bit appcast (if your operating system is 64bit)
- It will offer to download the 64bit version of app, even if there is no new version (if your operating system is 64bit)

musicvid
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by musicvid » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:27 pm

That will be cool, and thanks!

mmick
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Re: [Feature Request] 32-bit version again!

Post by mmick » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:08 pm

S55, thanks very much, those are GREAT news!

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