What happened to the Target Size Option?

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dogcity77
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:03 pm

What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by dogcity77 »

First time posting, so go easy on me if I've missed something obvious...

But it seems that the latest build has dropped the option to select the file output size (in terms of mb)... I really liked that feature, and my latest two batches, using existing 'presets' have resulted in files sizes almost double that which I had originally set ie. I was getting files around 350mb having selected that size as the target, now using the same preset, the files come out at 550mb..

Any chance we can have that feature back?

Or any suggestions other than trial or error?

Thanks all.
TedJ
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by TedJ »

It has been removed from current code due to it's tendency to stumble with VFR sources.
dogcity77
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by dogcity77 »

So any chance of it coming back in future builds?

Thanks!
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Rodeo
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by Rodeo »

dogcity77 wrote:So any chance of it coming back in future builds?

Thanks!
No.
alehel
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by alehel »

If you want to aim for a specific file size you could try using a bitrate calculator such as this one, http://www.3ivx.com/support/calculator/index.html.
lump
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Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:33 am

Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by lump »

I'm no video guru, but wouldn't it make more sense to try and figure out why it's choking on these sources and fix it instead of removing the option completely? The bitrate calculator is an option, but with AutoGK, and up until now Handbrake, I just set the target size and let it go, no fiddling around with a website.
thompson
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by thompson »

Target file size is a very poor method of quality-setting for encoding in all but one or two edge cases.
match
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by match »

alehel wrote:If you want to aim for a specific file size you could try using a bitrate calculator such as this one, http://www.3ivx.com/support/calculator/index.html.
Or you can use this program instead: http://vidcoder.codeplex.com/

I found that most of the online bitrate calculators never get it right. In fact, if you plug in the same info, they all give different results. You might get close with them, but probably not as close as Handbrake used to get.

Handbrake is open-source, meaning anyone can have access to it's code. Vidcoder (http://vidcoder.codeplex.com/) is just a different gui interface for Handbrake. It uses the exact same encoding engine as Handbrake. So you are basically getting Handbrake with a different look. The only downside is that he doesn't update every night like Handbrake...he is one guy, after-all. Right now he is working off of the latest Handbrake stable release (0.95). However, he does update about once every 1-2 months with the Handbrake nightly code. Handbrake 0.95 has target size, so therefore so does Vidcoder. However, I have also confirmed with the Vidcoder programmer that he is going to keep a target size option in his future updates as well. He recognizes that certain applications can benefit from it. He said that the code Handbrake used is pretty simple for him if he needs to reproduce it.

Now, you will only get as close to the target size as Handbrake used to get. To me, that is great, because out of hundreds of encodes, I've never had a problem. But you might have problems if you have variable bitrate audio or other items that makes it hard to calculate. If you never had a problem with Handbrake's target size option, then you probably won't with Vidcoder either. And by the way, it has a pretty slick interface...in some ways better than Handbrake. However, I've found the interface to be slightly sluggish at times (not the encoding process...remember, that is the exact same as Handbrake...I'm talking about the interface response.) I still use Handbrake for most of my CRF encodes. I want to get it's "bleeding edge" nightly features and updates. However, I've been using Vidcoder when I need target size, and it has worked out great.
grumbler
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by grumbler »

match wrote:However, I have also confirmed with the Vidcoder programmer that he is going to keep a target size option in his future updates as well. He recognizes that certain applications can benefit from it. He said that the code Handbrake used is pretty simple for him if he needs to reproduce it.
Thats great to know :)
I am currently trying the nightlys for the first time because my media players stumble across the VFR-Content that Handbrake 0.9.5 produces by default. In the nightly there is now an option to switch the old CFR setting back on that worked in 0.9.4 for my XTreamer and XBMC.

An because I ammostly converting TV-Series from DVD to mkv I always liked the target size option because the source material is alwas the same runtime and I could easy produce files of the same size for them.
So I was slightly worried when I noticed that the option is gone in the current nightly, even if I select CFR for the frame rate.
But if VidCoder continues the support for this I will simply use his GUI, hoping he also makes the CFR Option available :D
match
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by match »

grumbler wrote: I am currently trying the nightlys for the first time because my media players stumble across the VFR-Content that Handbrake 0.9.5 produces by default. In the nightly there is now an option to switch the old CFR setting back on that worked in 0.9.4 for my XTreamer and XBMC.
What do you mean by switching on the old CFR setting? Handbrake has always had the option to set a constant frame rate. I use ps3mediaserver to stream and have the same problem with VFR content. So I've always forced a constant framerate myself.

I believe the new function you are talking about in the nightlies is the option to choose same-as-source and constant framerate. The only thing that new function does is try to guess what the best constant framerate to choose is and choose it automatically for you (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=20326). So if you know the best constant framerate to choose (usually 23.97 in my experiences), choosing that manually is the same as this new feature you are using. And actually, I tried this new feature and it chose the wrong constant framerate when I tried it...but perhaps you had better experience with it. But it is really just a convenience option that guesses what constant framerate it should use. Like I said, you can just manually choose the constant rate on your own if you know which is the best rate to choose. I think you'll see that if you just choose the constant rate, it will work with your xtreamer. So in that case, vidcoder should meet all your needs.
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Rodeo
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by Rodeo »

grumbler wrote: I am currently trying the nightlys for the first time because my media players stumble across the VFR-Content that Handbrake 0.9.5 produces by default. In the nightly there is now an option to switch the old CFR setting back on that worked in 0.9.4 for my XTreamer and XBMC.
What 0.9.4 did was Same as source VFR, flagged as CFR. That was incorrect; if the player assumed the HandBrake encode was indeed CFR but if was in fact VFR (often the case if encoding from DVD sources), A/V sync would not be correct.

The nightlies' new "Same as source, Constant Framerate" does the same as what HandBrake 0.9.2 (or 0.9.1, not sure) did for Same as source, before proper VFR support was added.
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Rodeo
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by Rodeo »

match wrote:I believe the new function you are talking about in the nightlies is the option to choose same-as-source and constant framerate. The only thing that new function does is try to guess what the best constant framerate to choose is and choose it automatically for you (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=20326). So if you know the best constant framerate to choose (usually 23.97 in my experiences), choosing that manually is the same as this new feature you are using. And actually, I tried this new feature and it chose the wrong constant framerate when I tried it...but perhaps you had better experience with it.
But if you don't know what rate to choose, the options avoids the need to look at the scan log for each source.
match wrote:But it is really just a convenience option that guesses what constant framerate it should use.
Based on the nominal framerate found by FFmpeg or the MPEG TS/PS demuxer. So if this information is incorrect (doesn't match the source's actual average framerate), HandBrake will pick the wrong rate.

Though other than knowing extactly how your source was authored, I'm not sure how you're supposed to know how far off the nominal framerate is;
MediaInfo should report the same number that HandBrake uses as the framerate, for example.
match
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Re: What happened to the Target Size Option?

Post by match »

Rodeo wrote:Based on the nominal framerate found by FFmpeg or the MPEG TS/PS demuxer. So if this information is incorrect (doesn't match the source's actual average framerate), HandBrake will pick the wrong rate.

Though other than knowing extactly how your source was authored, I'm not sure how you're supposed to know how far off the nominal framerate is;
MediaInfo should report the same number that HandBrake uses as the framerate, for example.
Yeah, I have had that same problem. Before, when working with variable framerate videos, I would open mediainfo on one of the vob's. It would almost always say 29.97. Or I would look at the Handbrake scan log which would also say 29.97. However, 9 times out of 10, 23.97 produced the best results. Then again, I'm usually encoding sci-fi tv shows like the various Star Treks, Smallville, Quantum Leap, etc. I don't know if that has anything to do with it...the special effects or whatever. However, 29.97 always produced jerky camera pans and other types of scenes. 23.97 has always produced pretty smooth looking videos. In any event, for me this new option doesn't work very well...not because of the programming or anything, just because of the source material I guess.
Rodeo wrote:But if you don't know what rate to choose, the options avoids the need to look at the scan log for each source.
That's why I consider it a convenience option. I really like the idea of it...being able to just keep it at 'same as source' all the time. However, it just didn't work for my examples. Perhaps it works better for different types of source material.
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