Subitles that can be turned On/Off

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ItsInTheCave
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Subitles that can be turned On/Off

Post by ItsInTheCave »

Handbrake, and thus Mediafork, can burn subtitles into a video track while encoding but would it be possible to have a subtitle track that can be turned on and off so they can be viewed if the user wants to view them? And if this can be done perhaps the ability to incorporate multiple language subtitles into the video could be done too?

I know that I would definetely use this feature and I'd imagine that others would too.
baggss
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Post by baggss »

How would you turn them on or off after the video has been burned, or am I misunderstanding you?
ItsInTheCave
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Post by ItsInTheCave »

I probably didn't explain it well. I mean similiar to a DVD so you can do something in the software (press a button or through a drop-down menu) to select the subtitle stream that the user wants to play. This way they do not play on default but can be turned on at will.
rhester
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Post by rhester »

The problem, as I understand it, is that there is a different standard for text subtitles per container - for instance, there is a MPEG-4 standard for embedded text subtitles (not burned into the image), which is quite incompatible with Apple devices such as the iPod and iTV. Those use the QuickTime subtitle standard and require QuickTime as the container and is very poorly documented outside of Apple.

Rodney
ItsInTheCave
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Post by ItsInTheCave »

I personally don't mind if it can't work on apple devices and applications (iPod, AppleTV, Quicktime). There are other more advanced softwares that can handle it.

I've spent some time researching it a little so I'll type my findings below; apparentely MPEG-4s can handle a variety of different subtitle methods.

The first is known as MPEG-4 Timed Text and is part of the MPEG-4 standard. It's text-based though unlike picture-based which DVDs use so this mightn't work.

Another is DVD picture subtitles (vobsubs) which can be played through Videolan and other applications. Apparentely Nero Recode2 can simply take the subtitle streams and incorporate them into the .mp4 container without modifications. This method seems to be the best of the two.

I probably should have included this info in the first post but I hadn't researched it then. I hope this helps and is included in a future version of MediaFork.
jbrjake
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Post by jbrjake »

I opened a ticket for this on the Trac last week: http://mediafork.dynalias.com/trac/ticket/24

I put it down for version 1.0--that is to say, don't expect it anytime soon.

It'll probably end up being VobSub style in .mkv or .mp4. Nero isn't the only option for .mp4, thank god. GPAC does it as well.

Anyway, as rhester said, nothing iPod or QuickTime compatible.
baggss
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Post by baggss »

ItsInTheCave wrote:I probably didn't explain it well. I mean similiar to a DVD so you can do something in the software (press a button or through a drop-down menu) to select the subtitle stream that the user wants to play. This way they do not play on default but can be turned on at will.
As has already been said, not iPod compatible. In fact, the ability to turn it on or off would have to be resident in the iPod itself, not just the file.
latchkey
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Subtitle types

Post by latchkey »

From what I've seen, SSA and ASS http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs ... s/ssa.html are what the high production value fan subbers are using, generally in conjunction with a mkv container. They're very flexible with a small size but are text based so they require someone to OCR the vobsubs first.

Clearly building all that in is a lot of work, and frankly, I'd be thrilled just to see an option to mux the vobsubs into an mkv.

I was thinking though that a good first step might be simply allowing someone to output the vobsubs to a separate file while encoding. There are already vobsub conversion tools and mkv muxing tools out there, but currently mediafork offers no way for you to get the raw vob subs you'd need to run them through any external processes.

If we could export the vobsubs, I could work out and write up the conversion and muxing process into a simple guide. It wouldn't be automatic but it would beat the hell out of having to use mencoder to strip the sub files and hoping that you got the right video sections in the right language.
Niklas
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Post by Niklas »

Have you seen this page that Apple has up: QuickTime - Tutorials - Text tracks.

I would love you if you made it possible to include subtitles that way in the movies MediaFork creates!
baggss
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Post by baggss »

Interesting, but again, how do you turn them on/off on the iPod on the fly?
latchkey
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Text based subtitles

Post by latchkey »

As far as I know the Quicktime timed text format is no more difficult to parse than any of the other text-based subtitle formats. Unfortunately, changing how mediafork handles subtitles at the moment would require a good deal of work, and OCR is a very different process than video compression.
ItsInTheCave
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Post by ItsInTheCave »

baggss wrote:Interesting, but again, how do you turn them on/off on the iPod on the fly?
At the moment one wouldn't be able to turn them on/off using an iPod. We shouldn't have to hold good software ideas back simply because Apple is taking their time implementing proper mp4 features; in time Apple will implement these features, they just haven't as of yet. Granted the movie will still play you'll just not be able to watch the subtitles (on an iPod). Using other softwares though, like through a computer or certain other hardware devices, one will have the option to turn them on/off and possibly even choose between different language subtitles.

I did not request this as a feature for videos when played on iPods but rather as a feature people can use for when they watch their videos through a computer or other hardware device where they do not wish to use the physical media yet still want the features of the physical media.
baggss
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Post by baggss »

ItsInTheCave wrote:
baggss wrote:Interesting, but again, how do you turn them on/off on the iPod on the fly?
At the moment one wouldn't be able to turn them on/off using an iPod. We shouldn't have to hold good software ideas back simply because Apple is taking their time implementing proper mp4 features; in time Apple will implement these features, they just haven't as of yet. Granted the movie will still play you'll just not be able to watch the subtitles (on an iPod). Using other softwares though, like through a computer or certain other hardware devices, one will have the option to turn them on/off and possibly even choose between different language subtitles.

I did not request this as a feature for videos when played on iPods but rather as a feature people can use for when they watch their videos through a computer or other hardware device where they do not wish to use the physical media yet still want the features of the physical media.
I gotcha now. Makes sense....
whimpers
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Post by whimpers »

If you have .srt subtitle files for the movie (easy to find for most movies if you google 'DivX subtitles'), you can convert them to QuickTime text with TitleLab and add them to the movie in QuickTime Pro. You can then save as a self-contained movie (.mov) to have the tracks embedded or as a reference movie if you just want the .mov file to point to the tracks. If you want to add more than one subtitle track, you can do so and put them on or off using the Movie Properties window in QuickTime Pro.
But as said before, this wouldn't be compatible with the iPod (but great for FrontRow).
image
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Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:45 am

Re: Subtitle types

Post by image »

latchkey wrote:I was thinking though that a good first step might be simply allowing someone to output the vobsubs to a separate file while encoding. There are already vobsub conversion tools and mkv muxing tools out there, but currently mediafork offers no way for you to get the raw vob subs you'd need to run them through any external processes.

If we could export the vobsubs, I could work out and write up the conversion and muxing process into a simple guide. It wouldn't be automatic but it would beat the hell out of having to use mencoder to strip the sub files and hoping that you got the right video sections in the right language.
Excellent idea! this would be perfect until the feature is properly implemented as jbrjake has mentioned.
golias
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Re: Subtitle types

Post by golias »

image wrote:
latchkey wrote:I was thinking though that a good first step might be simply allowing someone to output the vobsubs to a separate file while encoding. There are already vobsub conversion tools and mkv muxing tools out there, but currently mediafork offers no way for you to get the raw vob subs you'd need to run them through any external processes.

If we could export the vobsubs, I could work out and write up the conversion and muxing process into a simple guide. It wouldn't be automatic but it would beat the hell out of having to use mencoder to strip the sub files and hoping that you got the right video sections in the right language.
Excellent idea! this would be perfect until the feature is properly implemented as jbrjake has mentioned.
TOTALLY agree. Even though it is kind of against the HB philosophy of letting the app do all the work for you, subtitle extraction is a method I could definitely live with for now.
redled
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Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:20 am

Post by redled »

Hi All,

Yes, this app is perfect for me bar the creation of external idx/sub files, as opposed to the burned in subs. Most importantly, thanks for the hard work in making this. :D

I'm living in a bi-lingual environment, and sometimes we use subs on, or off. It basically depends on who's watching the movie, and the type of movie.

External idx/sub files are perfect for us, because they allow various subtitle languages to be switched on/off, on our DVD player, which also supports MPEG4.

Anyway, thanks again.
hawkman
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Post by hawkman »

The way I get subtitles into my movies is TitleLAB (on the Mac), and downloaded .srt files from the net - TitleLAB can scale these to match the film (with a little help), and convert them to timed text compatible with QuickTime.

A few scripts I wrote automate it to some extent, and so long as they're saved as .mov you can have the subtitles off by default.

Bit of a pain, but it works for me.
Cyander
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Post by Cyander »

The big problem with automatic ripping to any text-based format (which I personally prefer) would not work that well, and introduce a horrific amount of complexity to Handbrake. OCR technology in open software is far too immature to do the job in any satisfactory manner.

I tried doing an actual workflow using some other tools, and they produced subtitles that were pure garbage and didn't even pass for 4th-grade english.

I think any support would likely be one of these video overlay methods described. Depending on how the video overlay was actually done, it might actually be possible to make a Quicktime compatible version as well, but that would be far off in the future.
mrluohua
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:41 am

Post by mrluohua »

I just thought I'd say that I second this concept of having "soft" subtitles in an mp4 container, so that perhaps I could have more than one set of subtitles.

I had come across another form post requesting this, who did some good research into how NERO does it in their mp4 files... I've tried to search for that forum post again and again, but I just can't find it.

Regardless, I am encoding with handbreak to mp4 (x264) and I would love to have more than 1 subtitle stream in my videos that is "selectable" (ie, not burnt into the video stream).

Thanks again for such an awesome program !!!
mrluohua
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:41 am

Post by mrluohua »

Ok, I did a little more searching and I found the post by maubp. The link to his post is

http://handbrake.m0k.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2061

The option that interested me the most, that would NOT require OCR, is
Nero's Recode2 makes use of the possibility of storing private streams in MP4 (question 4) and simply takes the DVD subpicture streams (vobsubs) from the DVD and stores them in MP4 without modifications playback of these streams works with Nero's, Gabest's and Haali's Parser, VideoLAN and some Hardware MP4 DVD Players
Anyway, thanks so much again !!
maubp
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:42 am

Post by maubp »

Yeah, on the face of it sticking the raw DVD subtitles directlying into the mp4 output like Nero seems pretty simple (and you can see how gpac / MP4Box did it too).

How useful this is depends on your prefered (hardware) player software - there is a small chance that Apple might jump on this band wagon if and when they add subtitle support to the hardware (iPods and AppleTV in particular).

That said, for playback on a computer, if VideoLan (VLC) plays them, we're sorted :)
wunderbaren
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Post by wunderbaren »

Is Handbrake developer working on "real" subtitles? Beacuse as far as i understand is the newest iTunes and iPods have support for that?
kneeslasher
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Post by kneeslasher »

Indeed, surely the newest iTunes produces hope. Might it be possible to encode a sample video where we can see the "show CCs" option in iTunes in action?

I'm sure the next step will be to have the iPods also supporting optional subs.
hawkman
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Post by hawkman »

kneeslasher wrote:Indeed, surely the newest iTunes produces hope.
Not really. Whichever way iTunes supports subtitles, it would need an awful lot of work in HB. It's not just the flick of a switch and they're holding out on us, believe me. :)
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