Update the Mac OS X User Interface ?

[Samurai]

Is anybody working on updating the Mac OS X User Interface ? It was OK before the last release but the addition of Presets has some real issues:

1) The Presets button is just crammed into the top right of the interface without good placement.

2) The Presets buttons is a square button, inconsistent with the rest of the user interface.

3) The use of the drawer for presets is questionable and there is no access to individual presets from the menus.

4) I also don't believe that you should have a sheet on the main window to add a preset into the a drawer.

5) The Presets are in blue text for no apparent reason and inconsistent with any other text color.

6) The Presets are label "HB-Apple TV". There is no need for the abbreviated HB since we are already in HandBrake, and the dash doesn't make sense.

7) With the addition of Presets, you are giving the users an easy, preset way to convert their files. In that case, you should hide all the other "advanced' settings. You should either work in preset mode or advanced mode. Of course you can start with a preset and then tweak, but that's advanced. So, HandBrake should startup with a simple preset screen.

8) The Presets menu needs to be to the left of the Windows menu.

9) If you click on a Preset, then change something, there's no way to know that you are no longer using the preset settings.

I'm hoping that this was just thrown together without much thought as a beta release and will be cleaned up. If someone isn't working on this I'd be glad to do it.

[jbrjake]

Thank you for this thoughtful post. Earlier today someone posted a thread entitled "Why is the GUI so awful." I commented that it wasn't a great way to frame the discussion.

This, on the other hand, is.

1) My fault. I'm sorry.

2) My fault. I'm sorry.

3) Where should the presets be? A drawer was a compromise because we couldn't think of anywhere better to stuff them.

4) How should the presets be added? A dialog box maybe?

5) The blue is to denote they're the packaged presets and not custom user ones. How can we signify this better?

6) Again, this is a way to make the user know it's a "factory" preset and not a custom one.

7) The presets aren't done yet, so going to a Basic|Advanced UniGui can't happen yet. That's scheduled for 0.9.0, but imo could happen sooner.

8 ) I totally agree, seems like sound HIG to me.

9) This is a big issue that we've been talking about every day. How do you suggest we show it?

It was thrown together as a beta, but it wasn't done without any thought. Dynaflash has put a lot of hard work into improving the GUI. Adding the mechanics of the presets took a hell of a lot of time and effort, especially because he had to deal with my crazy x264 pass-through strings. The UI is constantly evolving to deal with new features. That said, if you want to work on it, the best thing you can do is start talking to dynaflash on IRC, and figure out how you can collaborate on GUI design. This is difficult, because .nibs aren't versioned well. It's quite easy to overwrite changes accidentally, far more so than with text.

[dynaflash]

Is anybody working on updating the Mac OS X User Interface ? It was OK before the last release but the addition of Presets has some real issues:

1) The Presets button is just crammed into the top right of the interface without good placement.

2) The Presets buttons is a square button, inconsistent with the rest of the user interface.

jbrjake already addressed these appropriately.

3) The use of the drawer for presets is questionable and there is no access to individual presets from the menus.

and where would you put them ? A drawer, imho, is a perfect place for them. Power users can just keep the drawer closed if they want. Users that use presets all the time, can keep it open. Where would you like to see them.

4) I also don't believe that you should have a sheet on the main window to add a preset into the a drawer.

?? Why not ? A sheet is used in many programs for this very purpose. Again, what do you propose ?

5) The Presets are in blue text for no apparent reason and inconsistent with any other text color.

jbrjake hit it. Have you added to any of your own presets? The blue helps keep them differentiated until we add some expanding triangles so presets can be more 'packaged'.

6) The Presets are label "HB-Apple TV". There is no need for the abbreviated HB since we are already in HandBrake, and the dash doesn't make sense.

Same as above. You got me on the dash.

7) With the addition of Presets, you are giving the users an easy, preset way to convert their files. In that case, you should hide all the other "advanced' settings. You should either work in preset mode or advanced mode. Of course you can start with a preset and then tweak, but that's advanced. So, HandBrake should startup with a simple preset screen.

Well, this has been discussed ever since we took over HB and many people use HB differently. It was decided that presets could help add the simplicity of Instant HandBrake while keeping the advanced interface for Power Users of HandBrake. I dont think the addition of a preset feature necessarily means we have to hide the advanced features at all. Hence putting them in a drawer.

The Presets menu needs to be to the left of the Windows menu.

Agreed. My fault. Ooops.

9) If you click on a Preset, then change something, there's no way to know that you are no longer using the preset settings.

You mean other than the fact that the preset becomes deselected in the drawer, and where it says "Output: <preset name>" in bold in the main window it changes to "Output: Custom" ? I suppose we could have an alert message pop up with a warning, accompanied by a system beep and maybe growl notification.

I'm hoping that this was just thrown together without much thought as a beta release and will be cleaned up. If someone isn't working on this I'd be glad to do it.

Well, sadly I spent a fair amount of time for just "throwing it together without much thought". My bad. Anyway, as jbrjake suggested, if you feel so strongly about the sad state of affairs of the GUI, I do invite you to join us on our IRC channel where maybe we can work together to fix an otherwise atrocious situation.

[deckeda]

Samurai, you're a pretty smart cookie. Not many would have caught the faux pas of the Presets menu being "in the wrong position."

But I don't share your complaints, really, except for maybe one instance for #9.

When using the HB-AppleTV preset, I additionally check 2-pass and preserve (i.e. change from default) the audio sample rate back to 48*.

At first I enabled the "show chosen advanced x.264 settings ..." but noticed they disappeared when I checked 2-pass, so I wondered, do I now have 2-pass but none of the rest of the AppleTV settnigs? Why would they be mutually exclusive, as it appears? So I don't enable "show chosen advanced x.264 settings ..." and just rest easy now.

Not looking for an "answer" here, just illustrating the once instance where I agree with #9 above.

I suppose we could have an alert message pop up with a warning, accompanied by a system beep and maybe growl notification.

Nah, but this would be a fine opportunity to addd that email functionality you've always wanted

*BTW the GUI has this labeled in Hz instead of kHz. But the popups are pretty wide, so maybe they could be labeled 48000, 44,100, etc. instead.

[dynaflash]

But I don't share your complaints, really, except for maybe one instance for #9.

When using the HB-AppleTV preset, I additionally check 2-pass and preserve (i.e. change from default) the audio sample rate back to 48*.

At first I enabled the "show chosen advanced x.264 settings ..." but noticed they disappeared when I checked 2-pass, so I wondered, do I now have 2-pass but none of the rest of the AppleTV settnigs? Why would they be mutually exclusive, as it appears? So I don't enable "show chosen advanced x.264 settings ..." and just rest easy now.

Not looking for an "answer" here, just illustrating the once instance where I agree with #9 above.

deckeda, the advanced x264 opt strings are where the presets get a bit, well tough as there is no main window "widget" with which to control them as there is for every other parameter yet

Meanwhile, there is a thread in which I explain how to create your own AppleTV preset just like HB's but with 2 pass, preserving that all important string.

http://handbrake.m0k.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1238

Dont worry, next release that will not be as confusing.

[deckeda]

Talk about timing. I cruised that thread just now after seeing it was a Sticky, saw your great explanation, which is to say I obviously understood it wrong. Doh! I think I might have some movies to re-encode lol. And then raced back over here and ...

Thanks again dynaflash for that explanation there, and for this response here.

[nathanziarek]

I know Instant Handbrake compiles with the svn compile (or something called Instant Handbrake does; I've never used it), but I wonder if Handbrake is trying to serve too many masters and could use a branch that addresses these GUI concerns.

I'm incredibly impressed by the organization of the current information, even if the presets section feels tacked on. That said, I've always looked at HB to be an easier to use FFMPEG, and is veering towards becoming overly technical. Thats good to those that understand it. But I think much of the UI is useless to those that don't understand b-frames and x264.

Is this something the devs have thought about? I'm not a programmer, but I do interaction design and would love to give back to this program...I just think that the wants of some of the HB population, while copacetic to the main thrust of the current dev team, lean towards a "one-click" program that handBrake currently is not (and should not be).

Anyway, my 2 cents. Take it as you will

[Confused Amused]

I've spent the last week sketching up some ideas and I hope to have a interface screenshot assembled soon, but I suppose I can try to describe where I'm headed. Once I post the screens hopefully I can get some good feedback from the other devs and look to improve the UI for the future.

I've tried to create an approach that combines the simplicity of Instant Handbrake with the power and flexibility of the current iteration, so...

Main Window: More of a standard Aqua window. Toolbar at the top with buttons for Start, Add to Queue, Show Queue, and Advanced Settings. Editable fields on this screen are preset selection, Source, Destination, Titles, Chapters. Essentially the simplicity of Instant Handbrake for someone who has set up presets.

Advanced Settings: This is an inspector panel that pops open if chosen by the user, similar to this:


The tabs across the top would be for video, audio, and picture. Each of those would allow you access to more settings like encoders, audio tracks, deinterlacing, etc. This is where you could create new presets from or modify the settings for the current movie before starting it or adding it to the queue.

Queue Window: Similar to the queue view that Transmit or Transmission employs for downloads. Screencap of the video on the left with a short summary of the title and settings with a progress bar below.

Not the most detailed description, but hopefully it gives an idea of my direction and idea. A lot of this was inspired by Mucx's thread in the General forum a while ago about improving the GUI. I should have some screen mockups available soon.

IMO this would be an appropriate route to take, but it's ultimately up to the community and the devs and their feedback. Once again, my ideas will only be a suggestion - I'm not trying to step on any toes.

[dynaflash]

Okay, just so you all know, this whole "Basic" / "Advanced" concept with "Basic" (ala IHB) being the default, was considered by the devs way back in January. I even spent a bit of time wiring up a functional interface to explore how it might work.

It was hashed through, and for a variety of reasons, it was decided that HandBrake was to remain an advanced application for Power Users, so we decided on another route to bring some of the convenience of single click presets for those that do not want to tweak individual settings.

You might find this thread an interesting historical read and might gain some perspective on the history of this type of workflow:
http://handbrake.m0k.org/forum/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

I only post this as I dont want anyone here to think that we do not put considerable thought into the functionality of HandBrake, which isnt to say we have all of the answers or even the right ones, but we do try to think of these things.

[Confused Amused]

Thanks for that thread, it was definitely helpful.

What I got out of it was that the opposition to splitting off the advanced features was that it took too many clicks to change the options. Unfortunately, I think that will always be a complaint no matter what changes are made because let's face it - Handbrake is in the minority of OS X applications by putting every single option on 1 screen. Moving an option anywhere else is going to create an extra click and draw a complaint.

That said, the introduction of presets in that thread also help alleviate that exact problem. I think a few people in there mentioned there are some options they continuously have to go check (like deinterlacing). Well, now they can do it once and build a preset. Easy enough. 1-click.

And this is off in another direction, but is the Handbrake GUI actually used by power users? I would imagine the majority of the power uses tend to prefer the CLI over the GUI. That's a total guesstimate, but I'd be curious what the actual answer is.

I think my suggestion of inspector panel rather than a separate slide for Advanced Settings keeps the interface uncluttered and more manageable. One thing I admittedly didn't consider enough was the picture cropping and I looking back, would an inspector panel be too small to actually manage the cropping? Probably.

I'm gonna keep chugging away at ideas and possibly get some screens up, but I think it's a good thing there's been a decent amount of discussion lately on the GUI.

[dynaflash]

The GUI, unlike any other part of HandBrake, has the greatest love/hate relationship with users. Likely because its what they actually lay their hands on. What seems important to one person, is not important to another person. You have no idea how much debate there was just dividing the audio and video settings up into tabs, instead of all in one window like 0.7.1

There were many that thought it introduced one extra click, and that was too much. So, you will find, creating a gui for an app like HandBrake that everyone likes, is next to impossible.

Having said that, it shouldnt keep you from trying if you like your idea. You are approaching it the right way (like Mucx did) in getting something visual together for people to see and comment on.

Good Luck.

[dynaflash]

And this is off in another direction, but is the Handbrake GUI actually used by power users? I would imagine the majority of the power uses tend to prefer the CLI over the GUI. That's a total guesstimate, but I'd be curious what the actual answer is.

Most definitely, especially as we have made strides in offering Power Users features in the gui that allow them to do some of the things they could only do in the CLI.

Myself, I like using many of the newer advanced features, but I like using a gui if I can over the command line. Thats why, as we add features to make HB more "Idiot Proof" if you will, we area also trying to add advanced features much like are available in the CLI version.

Serving both masters is no easy trick.

[hawkman]

For what it's worth, I completely agree with keeping all the advanced options easily accessible. And I say this as someone who will use the presets extensively.

A few comments on the original issues:

- The blue presets (5) are fine, but they do rather disappear when they're highlighted...
- The presets button being square (2) makes it stand out from the rest of the interface - and it's totally different functionally from the rest of the interface. I think it's an important distinction to make... For myself, I've changed it to a click-on/click-off button, and killed the "presets" heading in the drawer (as I think the button in its on position makes it clear enough what the drawer is). A screenshot of an old attempt is here.
- I'm not sure the sheet vs dialog thing (4) is really an issue as both are modal, and the drawer is really just a giant user interface element of the main window.
- As for what happens when you change settings (9) so a preset doesn't apply, would it be feasible to deselect the preset too? That kind of bugs me, even though it's clear enough from the main window that I'm using custom settings.

[deckeda]

... even though it's clear enough from the main window that I'm using custom settings.

I tend to disagree --- not that it's custom per se but what Custom really means, i.e. that you've canceled your preset, not added to it. I understand that may change with a future release.

[michaelnatter]

I enjoy the UI.

I enjoy the Presets.

What I am curious to know is either:

- how to get an Applescript to click a preset (seems to elude the normal System Events/Assistive Devices commands)

- or how to set a preset as the default when the app starts

Any help?

You all rock and deserve to be very proud of a solid app.

[dynaflash]

What I am curious to know is either:

- how to get an Applescript to click a preset (seems to elude the normal System Events/Assistive Devices commands)

- or how to set a preset as the default when the app starts

Currently HandBrake does not have Applescript support

Setting a preset as the default on startup is in the works.

[michaelnatter]

Thanks for the quick reply dyna.

Yeah I realize that Handbrake doesn't do Applescript (yet?).

I am trying to teach myself some more coding and started with Applescript. You can use UI Scripting for non-applescript ready apps. You essentially tell the system to virtually click on various window elements on the non-applescript app.

I have a script running that will auto click on the next title in the title dropdown menu, highlight (but sadly not select) the preset, and add to queue, and then automatically rinse and repeat the process.

As I often deal with discs with 40+ short titles this script is really really handy…if I can get it to lock in that preset. Applescript's failure is that it is seeing the Preset's list as a table that just contains text fields (not clickable to applescript). There must be some way around it for now. I will keep investigating.

That being said...I still love the program and can't wait for the ability to set a default preset!!! And anything else exciting you all come up with.

Thanks for the hard work and quick reply.

[mike693]

I have a script running that will auto click on the next title in the title dropdown menu, highlight (but sadly not select) the preset, and add to queue, and then automatically rinse and repeat the process.

If you are having a problem automating selections with AppleScript in the GUI. You may wish to try HB's CLI version.

On the command line you can queue up commands easily by separating them with a semicolon.

Code: Select all

/Applications/HandBrake_0.8.5b1/HandBrakeCLI -t 1 -i /Volumes/dvds/movie/ -o /Volumes/video/title1.mp4;/Applications/HandBrake_0.8.5b1/HandBrakeCLI -t 2 -i /Volumes/dvds/movie/ -o /Volumes/video/title2.mp4

You could build a loop in AppleScript (or a shell script if you want to learn that as well) to generate text containing a series of HB commands like the above (except with all the options from your favorite preset). Then paste that text into the command line and let HB process its queue.

[Samurai]

Thanks for that thread, it was definitely helpful.

I'm gonna keep chugging away at ideas and possibly get some screens up, but I think it's a good thing there's been a decent amount of discussion lately on the GUI.

I agree with you completely. I was even working on using Interface Builder for some sample interfaces which I find as fast as drawing things up.

I think there are a lot of very smart people here who are very good at all the details of video and audio conversions. However, people like that usually don't make good UI designers and don't really understand colors, flows, consistency, and other UI and graphic design. They are far more interested in having all the functionality in front of them with fast access. Hopefully we can come up with something that is a really good user interface that we can also sell to the developers and highly technical people.

[michaelnatter]

If you are having a problem automating selections with AppleScript in the GUI. You may wish to try HB's CLI version.

I have thought about trying that version as some people say it rips faster and whatnot.

Sadly, my coding skills are relegated to ActionScript, Applescript, HTML, and a small amount of PHP (what I am trying to teach myself currently).

What I am doing is coding a support app that simplifies the process of going through casting DVDs with many many titles through Applescript prompts. I used to have the employees do it manually but they made too many typos and were constantly doing odd things that would mess up the whole process forcing us to start over in an already time sensitive situation.

I had a process which works fine…but with the recent/welcomed changes to Handbrake I have a way to automate it even more (what with the auto-naming and presets).

Is there a good place to start learning how to maneuver around the CLI version?

Thanks for the tip!

[dynaflash]

Is there a good place to start learning how to maneuver around the CLI version?

Thanks for the tip!

http://handbrake.m0k.org/trac/wiki/CLIGuide

[mike693]

Thanks for the tip!

You're welcome!

If I had the time, I would offer to help you with a title-ripper script (I'd be helping myself out as well), but unfortunately I am swamped. Maybe you could post your solution when you figure it out.

[Padawan]

My 2 cents on the topic:

- you could make the currently applied presets highlighted similiar to the currently playing song in iTunes (aka Apples way to do it).

- I noticed that when I choose a different Language, the bitrate gets set to 128, even when my preset just set it to 112. It should not do that.

- The deinterlace-option does not get stored in the preset (I don't know about the other picture options); ok, you can set it to ON in handbrakes prefs. Just pointing out.

- The picture-options (AR, deinterlace, anamorphic) must be set in the picture settings sheet. It'd be nice if instead of displaying on/off in the main window that there was an actual checkbox, additionally.

- A minor thing: If you choose your source, the sheet folds in, folds out again to scan the chapters and folds in again. It could just stay there when hitting open and start scanning right away.

Well, I like the drawer, is quite convenient. And thank you guys for making that great application!!

[bmackin]

Thanks so much for Handbrake!

It is great app with a very user friendly interface. I thought I would contribute what I could, in the form of some potential GUI improvements.

As I already mentioned I very much like the current user interface so my changes were based on creating a clearer visual hierarchy / grouping and simplifying a few things. For what it is worth here are my notes:

NOTES
1. I moved the presets from a drawer on the right, into a side panel on the left similar to other Apple apps (i.e. iTunes, iPhoto, etc.).
2. I moved the source selection process from a sheet into the main interface.
3. I planned for all progress to be shown on the one progress bar (at the bottom) with the text on the top right of the Progress area indicating the current activities. This gets the user used to looking in one place to see the current progress.
4. I used boxes to more clearly group items.
5. I added a bar at the bottom to hold important buttons.
6. I removed the 'enable queue' button. It seemed to me the queue will always be enabled when it has a task in it.
7. I simplified the 'START' & 'PAUSE' buttons into one toggle button.
8. I've added an input field for 'x264 Encoder Options' under the Encoder drop down on the Video tab. I envision that it will only be visible if the x264 Encoder is chosen.
9. I've created a switch on the main interface for each of the 'Picture Settings' (Keep Aspect Ratio, Deinterlace & Anamorphic). I also have a version where these are simple text fields designating ON or OFF.

COMMENTS
1. I didn't know how, but I envisioned that certain interface elements will be 'greyed out' when not available.
2. If the app is designed to fit 800 x 600 resolution, the 'Picutre Settings' sheet should be updated to fit. I have some ideas here but didn't want to go to far without some feedback. My ideas were to place the controls above the movie image and provide a toggle button for actual size / fit to window.
3. If the app was designed for 1024 x 768 instead of 800 x 600, I'd like to break the tabs in my design (File, Video & Audio) into their own boxes so that a click isn't required to access these controls.
4. Moving the 'File' controls into a tab is one thing I really didn't want to do, but it seemed necessary to accommodate some of the other simplifications. I guess my thinking was... I've added one more click to the interface by adding the 'File' tab but I've removed a click by placing the source items in the main interface instead of on a sheet. Since everyone will be using the select a source, and only some will be adjusting their settings (some may use presets), I thought it was an improvement. If anyone has another idea to remove the 'File' tab I'd love to hear it!

I have created an nib file that I can send if any of the changes are considered helpful.

I'd love to hear your feedback on my proposed changes, but at the same time I completely understand if my changes are uninteresting due to the complexities and time involved in linking them to the underlying code, (of which, I admit I know very little about).

[dynaflash]

1. I moved the presets from a drawer on the right, into a side panel on the left similar to other Apple apps (i.e. iTunes, iPhoto, etc.).

Not a bad idea, we tossed that around. Our thinking was to be able to easily hide the presets as many HB users dont use them, so why eat up the screen real estate if you don't use them. But, we're still on the fence on that one.

2. I moved the source selection process from a sheet into the main interface.

Interesting idea. Only thing is, once you acquire your source, why eat up the real estate which is so valuable for HB's other controls ? With a sheet, it gets out of your way once its done.

3. I planned for all progress to be shown on the one progress bar (at the bottom) with the text on the top right of the Progress area indicating the current activities. This gets the user used to looking in one place to see the current progress.

Need some clarification on this one. Isn't there one progress bar now ? I guess from your screenshots, you mean you use the existing progress bar area in the main window to show the scan progress as you no longer have the scan sheet ?

4. I used boxes to more clearly group items.

Much like HandBrake 0.7.1

5. I added a bar at the bottom to hold important buttons.

Ah, the bar is cosmetic, yes ? Looks nice.

6. I removed the 'enable queue' button. It seemed to me the queue will always be enabled when it has a task in it.

Has already been removed in our svn. All jobs run through the queue now.

7. I simplified the 'START' & 'PAUSE' buttons into one toggle button.

So, Start and Pause interchange, much like Start and Cancel do now. Where is Cancel and Resume in your layout ?

8. I've added an input field for 'x264 Encoder Options' under the Encoder drop down on the Video tab. I envision that it will only be visible if the x264 Encoder is chosen.

Already in our svn. Its in a new "Advanced" tab that has gui widgets to control most x264 advanced options.

9. I've created a switch on the main interface for each of the 'Picture Settings' (Keep Aspect Ratio, Deinterlace & Anamorphic). I also have a version where these are simple text fields designating ON or OFF.

Good idea. However, Keep Aspect Ratio pretty much necessitates the inclusion of the width, height steppers as well, as if you check it "off" in the main window, you would have to go to the Picture sheet to adjust the Width and Height anyway. Deinterlace is a pretty good idea in the main window as you might know ahead of time whether or not your source is interlaced, though most times, users have to look at the previews in the Picture window to see if Deinterlacing is required or not. Anamorphic is a gimme.

COMMENTS

1. I didn't know how, but I envisioned that certain interface elements will be 'greyed out' when not available.

Code: Select all

[fOutletName setEnabled: NO]

in Controller.mm

2. If the app is designed to fit 800 x 600 resolution, the 'Picutre Settings' sheet should be updated to fit. I have some ideas here but didn't want to go to far without some feedback. My ideas were to place the controls above the movie image and provide a toggle button for actual size / fit to window.

Scaling the preview images is on the list of things to do, especially since we can now bring in HD content, which will not fit in a standard window of any size.

3. If the app was designed for 1024 x 768 instead of 800 x 600, I'd like to break the tabs in my design (File, Video & Audio) into their own boxes so that a click isn't required to access these controls.

Much like 0.7.1 eh ? with all of the new controls we are working on, believe me, you will need tabs. No doubt about it.

I'd love to hear your feedback on my proposed changes, but at the same time I completely understand if my changes are uninteresting due to the complexities and time involved in linking them to the underlying code, (of which, I admit I know very little about).

bmackin: Its nice to see you've given this some serious thought and have spent some time mocking up your ideas. If you are serious about getting involved, I encourage you to join us on our irc channel ( see the "Dev" page on the website) and check out our latest versions in our svn. It has come a long way since 0.8.5b1

With all of the new features being added. The gui is changing constantly to accomodate them.