DTS in an M4V container, ever?

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Xandros
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DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

As far as I'm aware from what I've read (of course if I'm wrong please correct me because I do want to know for sure), the reason you can't embed a direct bit for bit copy of a DTS soundtrack into an M4V is because the standard doesn't support it. That's why you can do it with an MKV because that container format does support it. I'm stuck with MP4/M4V though because I use an Apple TV.

What's the current speculation that Apple will ever update the format to allow embedded DTS soundtracks? A good chance? A poor chance? Only if Satan puts his ice skates on?
kiran_mk2
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by kiran_mk2 »

I guess it's up to Apple. I can't see them moving away from Dolby Digital to be honest - I can't see the financial benefit of paying to licence the DTS codec and paying for the extra bandwidth that the increased file size would need. The only way I could see is if Apple move to support the lossless HD audio codecs (unlikely - we're more likely to get 1080p before HD audio) - DTS-MA has a "core" DTS track for those without HD audio decoders.

I guess you can put DTS into an m4v file - it's just that iTunes/AppleTV won't understand it and will refuse to play the file. XBMC or VLC may be okay with it though.
jbrjake
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by jbrjake »

kiran_mk2 wrote:I guess it's up to Apple.
Err...Apple's already done its duty as the registrar for MP4 by processing DTS Inc.'s request to register DTS and DTS-HD audio as allowed codecs in the file format: http://www.mp4ra.org/codecs.html

You should to be complaining to DTS for not opening up their implementation instructions to the public: "Document #9302J81100, Implementation of DTS Audio in Media Files Based on ISO/IEC 14496, DTS, Inc. 2010."
Xandros
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

Oh, so technically speaking the MP4/M4V container can have DTS sound tracks embedded into it, it's just no one has been able to incorporate the ability into an encoder because DTS won't release the required specs publicly?
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Ritsuka
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Ritsuka »

It can have everything you want. It's just a matter or player compatibility and doing it in a standard way.
Xandros
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

Wait, so what is the actual reason for not being able to pass-through DTS into an MP4 using Handbrake? Because DTS haven't opened up their implementation instructions, or because no one's implemented it in a standard way yet?
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Ritsuka
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Ritsuka »

Because we don't have the standard specifications and no player support it.
Xandros
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

Well, no player will play it but we could at least send it to a DTS decoder via optical or, whatever. Shame about the lack of specs availability though. Still, its been done for Matroska, given time I expect it'll eventually come to light how to get it working for MP4 as well.
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JohnAStebbins
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by JohnAStebbins »

A player still needs to support DTS in mp4 in order to extract the DTS stream and pass it to the external decoder. So you can't get past player support that way.
Xandros
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

So, in the end... We who care about it are waiting for the spec to appear from DTS so that the format can have DTS streams implemented and until it is no player is going to support it.

That could take years...
kiran_mk2
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by kiran_mk2 »

Forgive me if I'm being a bit dumb, but if Apple have set out a standard for using DTS and DTS-MA in mp4/m4v, shouldn't that imply that the AppleTV and iTunes/Quicktime etc can play DTS in mp4 but it's just that noone other than DTS knows the correct way to embed the audio in the file. I can't imagine Apple setting a standard and then not supporting it.

Is there anyway to fool the player into thinking it's sending a Dolby Digital bitstream to the amp, but in fact it's actually a DTS track? I've still got about half my DVDs to rip with DTS, but I'm going to wait until either DTS-in-mp4 becomes practical or the AppleTV starts being able to playback mkv files. Neither of these options seem likely...
dynaflash
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by dynaflash »

kiran_mk2 wrote:Is there anyway to fool the player into thinking it's sending a Dolby Digital bitstream to the amp, but in fact it's actually a DTS track? I've still got about half my DVDs to rip with DTS, but I'm going to wait until either DTS-in-mp4 becomes practical or the AppleTV starts being able to playback mkv files. Neither of these options seem likely...
Then don't wait. Use aac. We never added AC3 in mp4 until the appletv take 2 enabled it for the atv . Further we also had the intro movie from the atv os taken right off of the atv to reverse engineer how apple did it so it worked right (thanks to eddyg).

Yes, I have tried several methods of "fooling" the atv into thinking a dts passthrough track in an mp4 was actually an ac3 track to try to get it to pass the dts to my onkyo receiver ... no go.
Xandros
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

You know, I still can't get my head around what would be the reason for DTS getting Apple to go to the trouble of including the spec in the format and then not bothering to release their own methodology to get it to work?

Are they retards or something?
nightstrm
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by nightstrm »

Xandros wrote:You know, I still can't get my head around what would be the reason for DTS getting Apple to go to the trouble of including the spec in the format and then not bothering to release their own methodology to get it to work?

Are they retards or something?
It's one less thing they would need to do at the time they decide to implement DTS in MP4.
dynaflash
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by dynaflash »

Xandros wrote:You know, I still can't get my head around what would be the reason for DTS getting Apple to go to the trouble of including the spec in the format and then not bothering to release their own methodology to get it to work?

Are they retards or something?
In the end this is really a question for Apple. However it has not been beyond them to lay some groundwork especially with mp4 ...
Xandros
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by Xandros »

So now we just play the waiting game I guess.
jbrjake
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Re: DTS in an M4V container, ever?

Post by jbrjake »

Xandros wrote:DTS getting Apple to go to the trouble of including the spec in the format and then not bothering to release their own methodology to get it to work?
kiran_mk2 wrote:Forgive me if I'm being a bit dumb, but if Apple have set out a standard for using DTS and DTS-MA in mp4/m4v, shouldn't that imply that the AppleTV and iTunes/Quicktime etc can play DTS in mp4 but it's just that noone other than DTS knows the correct way to embed the audio in the file. I can't imagine Apple setting a standard and then not supporting it.
That isn't what Apple's done.

Apple is the official registrar for extensions to the MP4 spec. Anyone can create a private extension of the spec. Doing so necessitates naming the new elements. Like, if you're going to set up a system to mux and demux DTS audio in an MP4, you need a name to label the DTS track so your demuxer can know how to handle it. However, that leaves you with a problem. What if someone else creates a different private extension to the spec for their own purposes, but uses the same label name? Your two custom demuxers would barf on each others' content. A central registry for those custom label names exists in order to avoid such conflicts. So when someone wants to shove something new into MP4, they ask the registration authority to reserve that name for them. So DTS asked Apple to reserve the names dtsc, dtsh, dtsl, and dtse for their uses. This is all that's happened, nothing more. It in no way implies support from Apple. They have not set out any standards. They've just let DTS stake out space in the MP4 format.
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