Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

HandBrake for Windows support
Forum rules
An Activity Log is required for support requests. Please read How-to get an activity log? for details on how and why this should be provided.
KenKenco
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by KenKenco » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:24 am

Description of problem or question:
Why has the advanced tab been removed entirely? I like the flexibility it offers. I like to make my own presets, but also know what's going on in the background. If there is a very valid reason, then fair enough. But personally, I quite liked having it. The presets and other options were there for those who weren't sure what they were doing.

HandBrake version (e.g., 1.0.0):
1.2.0 (2018121700)

Operating system and version (e.g., Ubuntu 16.04 LTS, macOS 10.13 High Sierra, Windows 10 Creators Update):
Windows 10 Pro

KenKenco
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by KenKenco » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:09 pm

I've just ran my own preset trying to keep within the same parameters my advanced settings chose, and it just output a file with 16 reference frames... exactly what I don't want. Please bring the advanced tab back as an additional feature.

rollin_eng
Veteran User
Posts: 2943
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by rollin_eng » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:18 pm

Could you please post your HB logs, instructions can be found here:

https://handbrake.fr/docs/en/latest/hel ... y-log.html

Woodstock
Veteran User
Posts: 2869
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:39 am

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by Woodstock » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:58 pm

The advanced tab has been on the chopping block (publicly) for several years. Everything that could be done using it (and more) has been available in the "Extra Options" box on the video tab for just as long. If you wanted to enable it, you were warned that it was deprecated. And it has not had newer features added to it for as long as it's been deprecated.

So, not having it has broken a lot of youtube videos on how to do things with handbrake from 10 years ago, where the preset selections were not as varied. The presets that ship with handbrake are much better than then, too, so any tweaking that might be needed involves knowledge of how things affect other things, so "slider controls" are less valuable. But, I guess it's not as visual to type in a value, rather than show your mouse moving the slider control...

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by mduell » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:08 pm

Widespread misuse that's working against users interests vastly outstripping any legitimate/helpful use.

The few users who actually have the technical knowledge to make good use of advanced encoder options should have no problem with the remaining ways of specifying them.

HB-Classic
New User
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:17 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by HB-Classic » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:44 pm

Well if it stays this way, time to leave handbrake once the previous version is no longer good. Another company that has gone to the idiots way of doing things. Just dumbing things down because they want to be lazy and remove something with minimal effort to keep, as a way to increase pocket money by even a single penny (simpleton laze & greed wins again). This continues to show why I stopped giving any money to ANYONE even to this project in the past year or more; every domino is falling to the dumb crowd and can not be trusted to continue operating for EVERYONE if at all once they make a quick buck.

Misuse is a BS excuse. Just document and explain in the interface why it is "ADVANCED" or hide the advanced tab with a command line startup setting that really only those in interest would ever get; not remove it entirely. And WHAT OTHER WAYS it is not well documented how to do this let alone change on the fly for say a single file that may make gigantic differences with one single setting changed. I should not need to use command line for everything. Those of us that absolutely rely on the advanced may be happier if documentation was done to explain the exact differences with each CURRENT setting we now are stuck with alone.
So the most obvious part of the problem. The documentation does not even explain AT ALL what each previously advanced setting is contained in the profiles anywhere without testing every single option ourselves and looking at the resulting queue in a text viewer or wasting time doing an encode with every preset and then looking at what was used in the file property details and more. These settings could change with every release. How about an option to see more detail in the pop-ups available when hovering over the presets IN the program or a PDF for advanced users available by some small link that can be searched for that the now simpler minded people the project is programming for would not trip upon easily; thus saving the world from destruction because some non-important videos have an incorrect setting that god would kill us for using or apparently maybe just annoy some self centred programmer that they had to post convert a video they ripped of a stream because some non-important blog used some setting that does not work for them. Hek referecning youtube makes me think maybe this was google interfering with this project demanind if it was to continue getting some hidden funding from them that the developers drop these settings that cause google/youtube to take more time/cost to convert things people upload. Lets just tell the freaking truth about why the tab could not stay available for those that select to turn it on, as it did NOTHING to hurt the program or need anything but minimal programmer time to leave. It does not create bugs to have a tab of options.

For example - I need those settings to be easy to change and reference for many files done by hand. Some devices I use can not have 5 reference frames but every other setting can be maxed. But using 4 reference frames greatly increases file size for the content. WHAT preset 'tell me' only changes that one setting by leaves Motion Est. at 64 vs 32 or Subpixel Motion at 8 vs 11 or Motion Method all very important. I have found NOT one place that says what placebo vs even very slow actually changes. When I encode for say some poor kids ipad 2 vs a newer ipad 6 I use advanced options to keep file size vs visual difference between the devices screen quality to the best I can.

Rant over but not forgotten. I made a new account just for this BS change.

HB-Classic
New User
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:17 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by HB-Classic » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:01 pm

Woodstock wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:58 pm
The advanced tab has been on the chopping block (publicly) for several years. Everything that could be done using it (and more) has been available in the "Extra Options" box on the video tab for just as long. If you wanted to enable it, you were warned that it was deprecated. And it has not had newer features added to it for as long as it's been deprecated.

So, not having it has broken a lot of youtube videos on how to do things with handbrake from 10 years ago, where the preset selections were not as varied. The presets that ship with handbrake are much better than then, too, so any tweaking that might be needed involves knowledge of how things affect other things, so "slider controls" are less valuable. But, I guess it's not as visual to type in a value, rather than show your mouse moving the slider control...
Here is the biggest problem with "Extra Option" lots missing form the pop-up that would no have to keep a reference sheet just to use and now that the command line status is gone we do not know what options are currently set at by the presets to make useful changes.

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by mduell » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:19 pm

The removal of the advanced tab is in the best interest of the users of HB. The actual use of the advanced tab, as observed repeatedly in the wild, was making users lives worse. Between the plethora of bad advice on blogs/youtube videos regarding the options in the advanced tab, and users inability to resist turning settings they don't understand up to the max "because it must be better", the result was widespread poor choices (e.g. large increases in encoding time for small at best encoding efficiency gains). All of those users are far better off using the encoder preset/tune/level system supported by the encoder developers who actually understand the tradeoffs.

That said, all of the options available in the advanced tab are still fully available within HB. The few users who actually have the technical knowledge to make good use of advanced encoder options, and I reiterate few, should have no problem with the remaining ways of specifying them in the GUI and CLI.
HB-Classic wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:01 pm
Here is the biggest problem with "Extra Option" lots missing form the pop-up that would no have to keep a reference sheet just to use
Anyone who actually understands the options should have no trouble with knowing the options or referencing the documentation.
HB-Classic wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:01 pm
and now that the command line status is gone we do not know what options are currently set at by the presets to make useful changes.
100% BS, the unparsed options are all in the log.

User avatar
s55
HandBrake Team
Posts: 9314
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 1:05 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by s55 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:36 pm

To add:

1. HandBrake is an open source project. It is not backed by a company. All development is done by people in their free time. So I'm not sure how you think greed or a quick buck come into play. You have never donated to this project, nor has anyone else. You are getting something for nothing.
2. The tab has not been maintained in years. Many of the defaults are now wrong. Many of the tool tips are inaccurate. It's missing literally dozens of options. There is virtually no protection against invalid or incorrect settings.
3. The extra arguments box will show you the current encoder options for x264 in a tooltip when you hover over this so you can see the effect of preset, level, tune on the video tab in real-time. It's also in the log as mduell pointed out.
4. The x264 developers did a fine job on the x264 presets. It is exceedingly rare that folks would actually need to deviate from one of their presets if you have an appropriate level / profile set. There are various sites that list the underlying settings for these presets. As does the x264 full help option.

If you don't like it, feel free to go use other software. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to us if you do or not. Actually prefer not to have this immature and toxic attitude in the community thanks.

Woodstock
Veteran User
Posts: 2869
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:39 am

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by Woodstock » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:09 pm

HB-Classic wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:01 pm
Here is the biggest problem with "Extra Option" lots missing form the pop-up that would no have to keep a reference sheet just to use and now that the command line status is gone we do not know what options are currently set at by the presets to make useful changes.
Actually, the biggest problem is that, if you THINK you need the "extra options", you REALLY need to have some reference material available to tell you what they do. And YouTube videos of how some gamer managed to get what he or she thought was "perfect" video (to upload to a site that re-encoded their video anyway) does not qualify as "reference material".

dmitche3
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:02 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by dmitche3 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:34 pm

Well, I'm back to the older version. Most of these arguments are very silly as they presume to know the intent of every user. I personally don't care about speed but quality. Encode once, play many. I don't care I set my settings at extremely insane slow speed if I eek out 1% compression. How can anyone claim to speak for everyone?

Is it time for a schism? Might be. As this is open source there is no one stopping anyone from branching out. I did so with the old "PS3 Media" server creating my own version, even though it was a nightmare as the code for that project was crapware. I don't expect anything like that with this code thought as it has been a well maintained program. Good luck

Woodstock
Veteran User
Posts: 2869
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:39 am

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by Woodstock » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:39 pm

You might go visit the vidcoder site - they like to add menu options to their version of handbrake.

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by mduell » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:54 pm

dmitche3 wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:34 pm
Well, I'm back to the older version. Most of these arguments are very silly as they presume to know the intent of every user. I personally don't care about speed but quality. Encode once, play many. I don't care I set my settings at extremely insane slow speed if I eek out 1% compression. How can anyone claim to speak for everyone?
Great, use the placebo encoder preset with the appropriate tune for your content and level setting for your playback environment. Placebo has everything useful for eeking out quality per bit.

There's no need to know the intent of every user or speak for every user. They're exposing the options that are helpful to every user, and encouraging users to make good decisions.

KenKenco
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by KenKenco » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:12 pm

Woodstock wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:58 pm
The advanced tab has been on the chopping block (publicly) for several years. Everything that could be done using it (and more) has been available in the "Extra Options" box on the video tab for just as long. If you wanted to enable it, you were warned that it was deprecated. And it has not had newer features added to it for as long as it's been deprecated.

So, not having it has broken a lot of youtube videos on how to do things with handbrake from 10 years ago, where the preset selections were not as varied. The presets that ship with handbrake are much better than then, too, so any tweaking that might be needed involves knowledge of how things affect other things, so "slider controls" are less valuable. But, I guess it's not as visual to type in a value, rather than show your mouse moving the slider control...
Wow, it's kicked off quite a bit in here. Okay, so I understand the concept of the 'Extra Options' box. More of a CLI type thing (Which I feel is kind of a conflict of the point of a GUI, which was why I liked having advanced sliders). But, essentially if I copied my old style advanced tab extra options line into the video 'extra options' box, it should apply the settings I had for my advanced tab anyway?

KenKenco
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by KenKenco » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:22 pm

Also, if I wanted to formulate my own video 'extra options', where in the documentation (if anywhere) can I learn the different parameters and how they will impact my final video. At least the advanced tab provided some level of informal guidance (depreciated or not) it was hidden from the average user. Don't get me wrong, I love this software and use it frequently. I don't mind change but good presets or not, I used this feature.

rollin_eng
Veteran User
Posts: 2943
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by rollin_eng » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:55 pm

KenKenco wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:22 pm
Also, if I wanted to formulate my own video 'extra options', where in the documentation (if anywhere) can I learn the different parameters and how they will impact my final video.

I don't mind change but good presets or not, I used this feature.
First, why would you want to add extra options if you don’t know what they do? If you want to learn all the x264 options google the x264 documentation and/or parameters.

Second the encoder presets are created by the people who develop x264, they know what they are doing. The Handbrake presets are created by the people who develop Handbrake, again they know what they are doing...supposedly. :wink:

KenKenco
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by KenKenco » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:14 pm

Because at the time of using Handbrake about 2 years ago I made a conscious effort to understand the background behind x264 encoding. I made my presets, and generally left them alone after much testing with the software. I have 103 other things going on in my life and I also work in IT so forgive me for not learning and keeping handbrake CLI options in the forefront of my mind 24/7 for occasions like this... Hence, why it's nice to have the GUI. It acts as a reminder and saves me messing around with lines of text like ffmpeg. I have googled the params and on a quick look, I just can no longer be bothered. I'll be going back to the previous build and sticking with it, it seems.

I appreciate that, but I don't want to use them... Not a lot more I can say other than that.

rollin_eng
Veteran User
Posts: 2943
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by rollin_eng » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:13 pm

If you read s55s post above points 2 and 4 apply here.

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by mduell » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:29 am

KenKenco wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:22 pm
Also, if I wanted to formulate my own video 'extra options', where in the documentation (if anywhere) can I learn the different parameters and how they will impact my final video.
Same place they've always been - https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/MeGUI/x264_Settings

KenKenco
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by KenKenco » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:31 pm

mduell wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:29 am
KenKenco wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:22 pm
Also, if I wanted to formulate my own video 'extra options', where in the documentation (if anywhere) can I learn the different parameters and how they will impact my final video.
Same place they've always been - https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/MeGUI/x264_Settings
Thanks - I didn't know where they were, actually.

On a general basis, since everyone is so welcome to throwing their 2 cents in. Go ahead an constructively criticise me for these settings, but honestly what do you guys think to the settings I use? From full HD Blu-Ray content:

cabac=1 / ref=4 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=9 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.10:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=28 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / lookahead_threads=1 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=4 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=60 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=19.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=20000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / filler=0 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Seems to leave me with content that is widely playable on modern devices (iOS, PC, ATV v3, TV's, Xbox One etc). It also, on average reduces filesize between 30-45% without any noticeable loss in quality at all (and I'm a pixel peeper). If I feel fruity I use an RF value of 18 instead of 19. But it's about an 11% increase in filesize with that.

Constructive criticism is more than welcome :).

DrXenos
Bright Spark User
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:19 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by DrXenos » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:42 pm

I've always liked the presets because I don't know jack sh*t about A/V encoding. I've recently stopped using them, though (after the main/high presets went away). I've found that some things defined in the presets (e.g., track selection/forced subtitles) can't be overridden. I'd like to be able to use a preset for the encoded particulars, but still be able to set the audio/subtitle tracks I want. I remember I was trying to use one of the "high quality" x264 presents, but it had the auto foreign language subtitle track enabled, and I wanted to burn it a specific track of forced subtitles, but HB would ignore my choice unless I removed the preset.

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by mduell » Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:20 pm

DrXenos wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:42 pm
I've always liked the presets because I don't know jack sh*t about A/V encoding. I've recently stopped using them, though (after the main/high presets went away). I've found that some things defined in the presets (e.g., track selection/forced subtitles) can't be overridden. I'd like to be able to use a preset for the encoded particulars, but still be able to set the audio/subtitle tracks I want. I remember I was trying to use one of the "high quality" x264 presents, but it had the auto foreign language subtitle track enabled, and I wanted to burn it a specific track of forced subtitles, but HB would ignore my choice unless I removed the preset.
Configure the audio/subtitle defaults as you want them and save it in a preset.

DrXenos
Bright Spark User
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:19 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by DrXenos » Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:40 pm

mduell wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 8:20 pm
Configure the audio/subtitle defaults as you want them and save it in a preset.
The possibilities are too varied to do that for every case.

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6279
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by mduell » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:01 pm

Then you'll need to write a short script that wraps the CLI; parse the result of the scan, apply your business logic, and configure the encode appropriately.

DrXenos
Bright Spark User
Posts: 200
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:19 pm

Re: Why has the advanced tab been removed completely?

Post by DrXenos » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:29 pm

I already have a tool that will parse a disc's info and builds a script to have HB do the encoding. I just can't use presets because a lot of things aren't "overrideable" (I know that's not a word), like track-specifics. And I can't put the tracks I want in the presets because, like I said, the possibilities are too various for simple presets. If I specify a preset, followed options that override whats in the preset, that would be awesome.

As it is, I don't use any preset, so I'm not sure what x264 settings I'm getting, but the output looks good.

Post Reply