Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

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oRBIT2002
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Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:14 pm

I've been struggling with ripping some old PAL DVD's, the output is not "looking good". I need to deinterlace the video of course but the output is not looking good anyway, the video sometimes gets slightly jerky. I've tried all decombing options, deinterlacing, detelecine, but the jerkiness is still there..
If I rip the video without any deinterlacing, there's no problem (except for the interlace-stripes of course).

I've uploaded my experiment-videos here (just a small clip from one of my problematic DVD's).
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... iginal.m4v (looking ok, but with stripes obviously)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... mb-bob.m4v
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... efault.m4v
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... b-fast.m4v
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... erlace.m4v
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... slower.m4v
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... lecine.m4v

Encodelog:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... Encode.txt
Scanlog:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... s/Scan.txt

Have I missed some magical setting somewhere perhaps?

Thanks..

Registered55
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by Registered55 » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:05 pm

try doing deinterlace bob, the decomb ones has missed a few interlaced frames here and there (as it always does in my experience)
and i noticed you didn't do Deinterlace Bob?

if that doesn't work, then can you upload a small section of the original video if possible, i'll run it through MeGUI QTGMC script, see what that can do.

failing that, maybe the video is using some form of hybrid interlacing (a lot of the 90's TV shows did that, as digital editing was still experimental at best in the early to mid 90's, which left analogue editing for everything that came before it, such in this case).

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:42 am

Thanks for your reply, deinterlace-bob didn't fix it either. :(

tlindgren
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by tlindgren » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:30 pm

oRBIT2002 wrote:I've been struggling with ripping some old PAL DVD's, the output is not "looking good". I need to deinterlace the video of course but the output is not looking good anyway, the video sometimes gets slightly jerky. I've tried all decombing options, deinterlacing, detelecine, but the jerkiness is still there..
What's the content on those PAL DVDs? The scan log doesn't give many hints and the videos doesn't download for me.

If it's something like US TV series those were usually filmed in 60i ("NTSC") and in many (most?) cases the PAL conversion absolutely trashed the video to the point where it's very hard or impossible to get good result from it.

US movies are usually shot in 24p, sometimes they just speed this up to 25 fps while in other cases they did various methods of framerate conversions, most which messed up the output more or less. Some of them are as bad as the TV series.

The morale is that to get a decent result you really need to get a copy with the original framerate that no-one has messed up, this applies in the other direction when the original was shot outside the US (25p or 50i), but there's a lot less of those.

There are a few non-Handbrake solutions which does a better job but usually the result is merely less awful and to get even that far they're either much, much slower or require a lot of hand-tweaking (either which likely puts them outside Handbrake's scope).

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:19 pm

It's a tv-series from 1989 or so. I can't give you any other logs cause there aren't any (that I'm aware off). Not sure why you can't download the movies since they're on dropbox, perhaps you're behind a corporate firewall?
The DVD's obviously looks ok on a DVD-player but I can't get it look good with Handbrake. Perhaps it's possible but I'm not sure how. I had the same problems with the old "Macgyver" DVD's I wanted to convert, but it had the same problems..

musicvid
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by musicvid » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:40 am

The "original" you put on dropbox has no meaning for answering your question -- it has already been rendered in Handbrake, which is always progressive, whether a decomb / deinterlace filter was applied or not.

In order for anyone here to be able to do a field-by-field analysis, which would be the first step towards giving you any specific advice, you would need to upload a short clip at the original resolution, frame rate, interlace, and telecine parameters. You "could" do this via a fast frame copy of a small portion in VideoRedo Plus, which costs you nothing to download and try.
I can't give you any other logs cause there aren't any (that I'm aware off).
EVERY SINGLE ENCODE YOU DO IN HANDBRAKE GENERATES A PAIR OF LOGS -- A SCAN LOG AND AN ENCODE LOG
By giving links to two identical copies of the same Scan Log, you have not done what was asked, which is to provide the Encode Log. rtm

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:34 am

musicvid wrote: EVERY SINGLE ENCODE YOU DO IN HANDBRAKE GENERATES A PAIR OF LOGS -- A SCAN LOG AND AN ENCODE LOG
By giving links to two identical copies of the same Scan Log, you have not done what was asked, which is to provide the Encode Log. rtm
Having a bad day?
Those files are not identical for my eyes anyway. I cut'n'paste those two files from the output window from Handbrake.

Here's a small cut from the video:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/259 ... S_05_1.mpg

TedJ
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by TedJ » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:27 pm

Looking at the sample, I'm guessing your source was originally hard-telecined NTSC that has been standards converted to PAL with frame blending, which completely destroys the frame cadence required to successfully detelecine it. Attempting to detelecine was spuriously dropping frames so I suspect that a straight decomb/deinterlace is as good as you'll get.

Sorry.

mduell
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by mduell » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:02 pm

musicvid wrote:
I can't give you any other logs cause there aren't any (that I'm aware off).
EVERY SINGLE ENCODE YOU DO IN HANDBRAKE GENERATES A PAIR OF LOGS -- A SCAN LOG AND AN ENCODE LOG
By giving links to two identical copies of the same Scan Log, you have not done what was asked, which is to provide the Encode Log. rtm
His scan log is a scan log and his encode log is an encode log.

musicvid
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by musicvid » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:39 pm

They are now.
tlindgren thought they were scan logs too. I guess both of us were wrong . . .
:wink:

BTW, his source does give all appearances of some form of hard tele, quite possibly [23.976IVTC->29.97NTSC->25PAL] as TedJ thought; in other words impossible!
This grab shows there are blended fields at some, but not all cuts. Also illustrates the advantage of having some clean source to examine.
Image

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:25 pm

Bad news, but thanks anyway.
If I had an NTSC DVD instead, I would probably not have this problem?

musicvid
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by musicvid » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:41 pm

If I had an NTSC DVD instead, I would probably not have this problem?
No, you would have only 2/3 of this problem. Unfortunately, most of these early TV series were hard telecined, and a filter may or may not work to some extent, depending on which of several methods was used to produce it.

TedJ
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by TedJ » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:58 am

Problems creep in with hard telecined NTSC material if there are edits performed after the telecine is applied as this also breaks field cadence. HandBrake's detelecine filter is stateless so it should correct pretty quickly after the edit but there will be a residual glitch.

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:37 am

I tried it on a region 1 release of the same tv-series. I used "detelecine" and set framerate to 23.97 and it looked alot better. With the exception for the opening credits, it suffered from interlace-artifacts from time to time but rest of the episode looks really good. I guess I can live with that problem.
Is this common behaviour? Parts of the movie has some kind of different encoding than the rest even if it's in the same file?

TedJ
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by TedJ » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:44 am

Yes, it's quite common with titles and VFX to be rendered at 29.97 fps. Try detelecine, decomb, same as source.

tlindgren
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by tlindgren » Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:51 am

oRBIT2002 wrote:Is this common behaviour? Parts of the movie has some kind of different encoding than the rest even if it's in the same file?
As TedJ notes it used to be fairly common but it can sometimes be handled via VFR (variable framerate). Newer media is usually better but it can still show up.

However, sometimes you'll encounter example where different objects on the same frame is done in different framerate/encoding! The most common example of this is when they filmed something at one way, then added things like special effects or scrolling text which were done in a different way on that. I know it sounds corny to do that but it's not that uncommon for pre-2000 TV series and you sometimes see versions of this even on brand new shots (usually as interlaced text on progressive but all possible abominations do still show up from time to time).

These mixed framerate sections can sometimes be handle using vector (or motion) adaptive deinterlacing, however this is not (currently) available via Handbrake, I guess it's partly because the software implementations tends to be very, very slow and partly because no one has volunteered to put in the time needed to adapt something of this type into HB.

Some mid-range graphics cards do have this as do some (higher-end) TVs, unfortunately there's usually no easy way to get the result back to encode and it varies wildly how well (or not!) they handle mixed content, so in some cases encoding it untouched (with a much larger file) can sometimes result in the best result but if it doesn't it'll probably look pretty bad so it's a strategy with risks (and sometimes you need to do special things so the output is "flagged" correctly, by default all HB output is marked as progressive and some display solutions honor that while others ignore it).

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:16 pm

Thanks for all replys.
Obviously I can forget to convert my 7 seasons of "Macgyver"(PAL) to MP4 since all episodes I've tried looks bad (which makes sense by all explanations found in this thread). :(

TedJ
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by TedJ » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:47 am

A lot of 80's and 90's TV boxsets released in PAL markets are pretty abysmal, I'm afraid. You want to see something truly awful? Take a look at the R4 release of the first couple of seasons of Family Guy. :(

oRBIT2002
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by oRBIT2002 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:23 am

Got another old tv-series today, "Automan", from the early 80's. Have the same problem as my previous DVD's.. :(((

Registered55
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Re: Deinterlacing/Decombing problems(?)

Post by Registered55 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:34 pm

these things usually have to be dealt with using Avisynth, which is way outside the scope of this topic.

MeGUI will help a lot, with custom scripts you will have to make your self, or you could try

http://www.digital-digest.com/software/Hybrid.html
this has become very powerful, but the interface is really confusing, and requires a lot of time learning it, the stability is getting better, but it still has it's moments unfortunately, I'm only recommend this because you clearly have more than one type of dvd that is having this issue, otherwise i wouldn't.... the time it takes to learn these tools can be quite high, but the reward can also be high as well, especially if you have a lot of the 90's PAL dvd's that has Film & Video in the same episode.


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