Vertical banding + VBR?

HandBrake for Windows support
Forum rules
An Activity Log is required for support requests. Please read How-to get an activity log? for details on how and why this should be provided.
Post Reply
drkr
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by drkr » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:42 pm

So for a long time I've used AutoGK whenever I've needed to rip a DVD and I was never really that impressed with results, it would usually take a 2-3GB XviD encode to get a file near the DVD quality.

For a while I've been downloading a lot of H264 content but I never really bothered to look into encoding it myself because of how AutoGK worked fine. Recently I ended up in the 'need to rip a DVD' situation again and I've just tried out Handbrake. I really like it.

Did a 350MB H264 encode next to a 350MB XviD encode to compare, even though the H264 looked superior without any comparison. Better colour reproduction (XviD looked washed out), MUCH less pixalation on details, there was only one area that I could fault... the H264 file has vertical banding.

It's not BAD, its really only noticeable on blacks, and maybe it's to do with the decoding process (my videocard? the decoder?) because I noticed it on the nearest H264 file that I hadn't encoded myself.

Any ideas on that?

Also, the only other thing I have to say is why isn't there a VBR LAME option? Did I miss something?

drkr
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by drkr » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:58 pm

Image
That's what I mean by vertical banding if you can see. Again, in this picture, on the dark area of the train: http://i49.tinypic.com/14e9yiw.jpg

mduell
Veteran User
Posts: 6630
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by mduell » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:41 am

Have you verified the banding does not appear in the source?

creamyhorror
Regular User
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by creamyhorror » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:02 am

mduell wrote:Have you verified the banding does not appear in the source?
He did say he also noticed it on a file he hadn't encoded itself. I wonder if it's a decoder issue, because it's an interesting artifact and shouldn't be there. Never seen the like myself.

OP, maybe cut a sample with the problem, or do a short encode, for us to play back on our systems? Also, tell us what player you're using and what H.264 decoder (if you know).

drkr
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by drkr » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:51 pm

Ah, okay, seems the problem is gone in VLC so it must be the decoder MPC is using by default... weird.

Anyway, is there anyway to get VBR LAME audio in Handbrake? Also, how do I retain the original audio track (without transcoding it)?

User avatar
Rodeo
HandBrake Team
Posts: 12160
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:55 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by Rodeo » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:37 pm

drkr wrote:Anyway, is there anyway to get VBR LAME audio in Handbrake?
No.
drkr wrote:Also, how do I retain the original audio track (without transcoding it)?
If your source has an AC3 audio track, choose AC3 passthrough (MP4 and MKV).
If your source has a DTS audio track, choose DTS passthrough (MKV-only).
If your source has neither, you will have to transcode the audio.

drkr
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by drkr » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:59 pm

Ah okay.

Might be nice if VBR Lame could be added in the future. Oh, and a "shutdown when finished" option.

Thanks anyway peops :D

creamyhorror
Regular User
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by creamyhorror » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:55 am

Really, I don't see the point of using MP3 itself, since AAC goes in MP4s.

Is there any drawback or risk to using VBR (whether AAC or MP3) for audio tracks? It's essentially equivalent to CRF for video, isn't it? Why isn't it offered in HB? (Simplicity?)

drkr
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:36 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by drkr » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:08 pm

One last thing, just a little curious as to whether doing lots of things like installing programs whilst these videos encode will cause problems with the output file?

TedJ
Veteran User
Posts: 5388
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by TedJ » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:36 pm

No, performing other tasks while encoding will slow things down but shouldn't affect the output file.

mtherault
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:31 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by mtherault » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:00 pm

I would have to disagree with you. I actually tested this out. I have encoded the same movie two times to see if there would be any changes. I did see skips while encoding if I was gaming while the encode was happening. However, this only happens with my one pass encodes, and not my two pass encodes. I have tried it with 2-pass, and it doesn't seem to happen.

TedJ
Veteran User
Posts: 5388
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by TedJ » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:12 pm

You'll notice I used the word shouldn't in my previous post. :)

Considering gaming is one of the other activities that really stresses hardware, this may indicate some marginal hardware in your rig.

mtherault
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:31 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by mtherault » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:31 pm

Ok doing a little more digging about the vertical banding. I is actually both a decoder, and a codec issue. I'll explain.

720x480p DVD
Source encoded with handbrake:
Played with VLC= No banding
Played with MPC-HC= Banding
Played with WMP(win7)= Banding

Source encoded with mediacoder:
Played with VLC= No banding
Played with MPC-HC= Banding
Played with WMP(win7)= Banding

Source encoded with Sorenson Squeeze:
Played with VLC= No banding
Played with MPC-HC=No Banding
Played with WMP(win7)=No Banding

Now at this point I was just thinking that maybe the pay solution doesn't have them, because maybe that is what you are paying for. However, testing a little more. The Hi-def encode I did 1920x800(was cropped) down to 1280x720p. Didn't have this issue no matter what encoder I used even with the exact same settings.

I only saw this when I was within a foot and a half of the monitor for the DVD encode. However, when I stepped back to 2 feet I couldn't even notice it.

TimmyC
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:30 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by TimmyC » Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:50 am

creamyhorror wrote:Really, I don't see the point of using MP3 itself, since AAC goes in MP4s.

Is there any drawback or risk to using VBR (whether AAC or MP3) for audio tracks? It's essentially equivalent to CRF for video, isn't it? Why isn't it offered in HB? (Simplicity?)
I'll take pretty strong issue with creamyhorror's contention about mp3, since
a) AAC is a format with a lot more "headroom" than mp3 because of better basic design, but currently the best AAC encoders (Nero and iTunes) are only marginally better than mp3 at bitrates above 128
b) the FAAC encoder used by Handbrake is a lot worse than Nero and iTunes' AAC encoders

But I totally agree with the implicit point about VBR audio. Modern container formats seem to do fine with VBR, and Handbrake is already using quality-based video encoding (so basically, VBR video) and it seems that they could do the same for audio.

Lame mp3 is better than FAAC. And if VBR is allowed, it will be even moreso, since most recent optimization has gone into VBR presets, not CBR.

creamyhorror
Regular User
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by creamyhorror » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:49 am

TimmyC wrote:
creamyhorror wrote:Really, I don't see the point of using MP3 itself, since AAC goes in MP4s.

Is there any drawback or risk to using VBR (whether AAC or MP3) for audio tracks? It's essentially equivalent to CRF for video, isn't it? Why isn't it offered in HB? (Simplicity?)
I'll take pretty strong issue with creamyhorror's contention about mp3, since
a) AAC is a format with a lot more "headroom" than mp3 because of better basic design, but currently the best AAC encoders (Nero and iTunes) are only marginally better than mp3 at bitrates above 128
b) the FAAC encoder used by Handbrake is a lot worse than Nero and iTunes' AAC encoders
No, my point is that MP4 players don't seem to like MP3 at all (as you mentioned in your post in the General forum).

TimmyC
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:30 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by TimmyC » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:06 pm

creamyhorror wrote:No, my point is that MP4 players don't seem to like MP3 at all (as you mentioned in your post in the General forum).
Ah, I assumed that since you mentioned AAC in your post, you were comparing the formats and just assuming AAC is better than mp3, regardless of encoder. Sorry to jump the gun there.

KyleMac
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:09 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by KyleMac » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:20 pm

drkr wrote:Image
That's what I mean by vertical banding if you can see. Again, in this picture, on the dark area of the train: http://i49.tinypic.com/14e9yiw.jpg
I've been having this problem since I installed the Windows 7 RC months ago and it drives me nuts with dark videos such as Stargate Universe episodes.

I get the stripes while playing back anything in WMP on Windows 7, and never in VLC. Every other app is hit and miss.

I came to the conclusion that it must be some kind of issue with a codec Windows 7 comes with and the drivers for my 4870. But this weekend I tested other computers with a 4200 and a 4850 and neither has the issue so I don't think it is the drivers, but instead my actual card.

It's a shame since these days WMP now has a really nice minimalistic interface and uses less CPU than any other player when playing HD content. But some codec presumably using some kind of hardware acceleration is messing it up :(.

cardinale
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:25 am

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by cardinale » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:31 am

Just signed up hoping to help others with this problem.

In my case (dont know if it will help everyone) this banding was caused by an ati driver setting.

Catalyst Control Center > Video > All Settings > Uncheck "Enable Dynamic Contrast" in the Advanced Quality section.

As soon as i did this, no more annoying banding on any videos played in WMP.

Hope this helps.

creamyhorror
Regular User
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:00 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by creamyhorror » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:54 am

Thanks, that's useful to know!

KyleMac
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:09 pm

Re: Vertical banding + VBR?

Post by KyleMac » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:06 am

I was just going to post to say that the problem has disappeared by itself after damn near a year.

But it's definitely the "Enable Dynamic Contrast" option in the ATI drivers. There's a note involving this option in the Catalyst 10.3 release notes so I think they might have turned it off by default for all cards now, which is how my problem disappeared. Though I was sure I had been through every option in the control centre previously.

Post Reply